Evolution Of The US Jerry Can

[Carter]

My other ? can. No rust inside and it doesn't leak. Carter

http://news.webshots.com/photo/24027517 ... vhost=news

[lucakiki]

Luca....

Logic:

Answer one simple question.....The ICC required the information about fuel containers carried over the road be put on them.

The early standard American gas can has that info.

How would the makers of the Mystery cans have been able to make them without it? After production with the stamping had begun.

That's going backwards, and would be illegal.

Logic eh? The early standard cans had the ICC info, so no can without that info could be later? You must be kidding.
Besides, the mistery cans with no chain hole were made like that because they were copied straight from the German can, right?
Then they received the hole because the same stamping was also used for screw lidded cans in 41. Right? That means that they were still building illegal cans after they had started to build legally marked cans, going backwards.
Somehow your way of dating the mistery cans seems flawed to me.

You still did not tell me which is the earliest dated picture of a mistery can you are aware of.

Of course maybe the OSS ordered some that looked like the Brit/German cans and requested they have NO maker info, NO ICC info, NO dates on them, and also censored the pictures, yes?

P.S. Here is Carter's other mistery can with the tiny centered holes for safety wire ( gerrykan's idea which does make sense) and hole on tab.

[Chuck Lutz]

Aw c'mon Luca, I'm not kidding about the ICC Regulations. Once the ICC decided that info had to go on the "fuel container carried over the road", it was put on it, they weren't fooling around. So unless you have a WWII gas can dated 1941-1945 that does NOT have the ICC stamping, I think that pretty much settles THAT issue of the mystery cans being produced BEFORE the standard American gas cans were.

Now, on to the pic of Carter's dark green US-made Mystery can. Set a German, a British and a a standard American gas can next to each other....put a USMC gas can like Mark's in there if you have one...

Let's compare it to Brit/German cans....and USMC and standard American gas cans...it's actually the same as two of the mystery cans I have....

1) The little holes on the face of the handle....which are NOT found on German/Brit cans but ARE found on the mystery cans and later USMC and standard American gas cans (one or two are found).

2) The handle; where in Carter's pic you can see how his mystery can handle at the REAR it is SQUARED off and at the front it is ROUNDED just above where the two small holes are. (it is cut off square at the back and welded to the top of the tank and at the front it is also squared off where it is bent down to follow the contour of the tank) Looking at the German/Brit cans, it is squared off at the rear andat the front where it is bent down to follow the contour of the tank it is ROUNDED where it is welded to the tank. On the standard American gas can it is SQUARED off like the mystery cans.

3) The hole in the cap tab. On the German/Brit cans, it is off to one side. On the mystery cans it is centered. On the USMC gas can Mark posted the pic of....centered.

Now I don't know if seeing how the mystery cans have construction details that are LIKE the American gas cans and UNLIKE the German/Brit ones could lead you to the conclusion that these were made in Europe, but if you dispute these observations, can you post a theory to explain why you think that cans that are LIKE later US production and unlike European production would STILL have come from European countries?

Now I also know you have a "European Mystery Can" to compare, would you be so kind as to list the FINDINGS when you compare what I have pointed out to your can and to actual German/Brit cans?

I wonder if the "mystery can" you have is an early prototype of one of those? Surely it isn't a later output? You don't think anyone as regimented as the German Army would allow anyone to start making gas cans with no info stamped on them after the WaffenAmpt inspectors told them to put them on do you? Heck, they'd of ended up making uniforms in some concentration camp probably!

But who knows, we can't PROVE that, we just have to trust to some LOGIC. On the other hand, maybe your mystery can was made after the war?

[Mark Tombleson]

This is a rather interesting link.
http://www.generatorjoe.net/yHTML/yWedcojerrycan2.html

Funny thing… gas has been taxed in the USA since June 21, 1932. The rate was $.01 per gallon and went up to $.015 and back down again until 1940 where it stayed at .015 until 1951.

Now a bit of history:
Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC), former independent agency of the U.S. government, established in 1887; it was charged with regulating the economics and services of specified carriers engaged in transportation between states. Surface transportation under the ICC's jurisdiction included railroads, trucking companies, bus lines, freight forwarders, water carriers, oil pipelines, transportation brokers, and express agencies.
The ICC, the first regulatory commission in U.S. history, was established as a result of mounting public indignation in the 1880s against railroad malpractices and abuses (see Granger movement), but until President Theodore Roosevelt, the ICC's effectiveness was limited by the failure of Congress to give it enforcement power, by the Supreme Court's interpretation of its powers, and by the vague language of its enabling act. Beginning with the Hepburn Act (1906), the ICC's jurisdiction was gradually extended beyond railroads to all common carriers except airplanes by 1940. Its enforcement powers to set rates were also progressively extended, through statute and broadened Supreme Court interpretations of the commerce clause of the Constitution, as were its investigative powers for determining fair rates of return on which to base rates. In addition, the ICC was given the task of consolidating railroad systems and managing labor disputes in interstate transport. In the 1950s and 60s the ICC enforced U.S. Supreme Court rulings that required the desegregation of passenger terminal facilities.


OK, now as far as gas cans go, the Motor Carrier Act of 1935 was the legislation that set up ICC regulations on gas cans (as well as all motor vehicle transport issues).
Finally we get back to Robin’s Mystery can thread where DOM posted the following:
And finally The U.S.M.C. Mystery can answer : I have a letter from the U.S.M.C. Air & Ground Museum , Quantico , Virginia USA , which states with five enclosed photos showing ( said mystery can ) . Experimental water/gasoline "jerry" can which seems to have been designed by the Marine Corps just prior to or early in WW2 ( US declared war .Dec7 1941 ). From the General Fred S Robillard Collection . General Robillard was incharge of the Marine Corps motor transport .
Now of course this is not diffinative , but it does show some offical paper work on the subject .
If anyone in the Virginia or Washington areas wishes to follow this leed I will gladly supply all the relevent file details .
Thanks . Dom

Question 1.Were any of the photos posted on these two threads one of the 5 photos Dom is discussing here?

Question 2. How were these Mystery cans made in enough quantity to show up all over the place and not have ICC marking that were required in the 1935 Act?

Gentlemen, the more I search for manufacturing evidence of the Mystery can here in the states, the more it seems the ICC rules either didn’t apply (how did they do that?), they were not followed, or the cans were not made here in the states. Now, if they were made outside of the states, they would not necessarily be marked and would certainly not need ICC marking. Furthermore, it would allow them to be made concurrent with the other cans in the 42-44 time period.

[lucakiki]

But who knows, we can't PROVE that, we just have to trust to some LOGIC. On the other hand, maybe your mystery can was made after the war?

Hey Lutz, you do not have the exclusive on logic, even if you keep using block letters to underline the concepts.
The cans that by widespread consensus are usually called mistery cans are for the moment keeping their mistery status because no one ,yet ,has come up with some definitive evidence nor on where nor on when they were manufactured. It is not even sure that solving one of the misteries will automatically also solve the other. It is quite possible that they were manufactured both in the States and elsewhere.

Your theory on ICC requirements as a time barrier doesn't seem to be shared by all, so you will forgive if I just don't buy it. In other words, it does not ( quoting you) pretty much settle that issue of the mystery cans being produced before the standard American gas cans were.

So unless you have a WWII gas can dated 1941-1945 that does NOT have the ICC stamping, I think that pretty much settles THAT issue of the mystery cans being produced BEFORE the standard American gas cans were.

Most likely, you do have such a can yourself, which would bang the nails in the coffin of your statement,quoted above.. If not, then it is a pleasure to help you out: look!




bang, bang, bang, bang!. You are welcome!

Set a German, a British and a a standard American gas can next to each other....put a USMC gas can like Mark's in there if you have one...

Yes I still have one USMC can left to look at, Conco made of course. And just for a wider landscape I also have an assortment of German cans , both variants of Italian cans, all possible war years of British cans. The game here is not bragging about one's possessions, so the already posted pictures ( none from you) should be enough for the debate.

The little holes on the face of the handle....which are NOT found on German/Brit cans but ARE found on the mystery cans and later USMC and standard American gas cans (one or two are found).

Again? Some mistery cans do not have the holes, possibly as direct copies of german cans, wherever they were made, and some do have holes. Possibly because at the time of manufacture said holes were used also for the cans mentioned above, the "legally"marked ones... Contemporary, if this is not too big of a stretch.

The hole in the cap tab. On the German/Brit cans, it is off to one side. On the mystery cans it is centered. On the USMC gas can Mark posted the pic of....centered.

Actually on he mistery cans the hole is centered when present, but is not even there on other cans. Just as in Carter's yellowish tan can, bought somewhen on your side of the Ocean.

Now I also know you have a "European Mystery Can" to compare, would you be so kind as to list the findings when you compare what I have pointed out to your can and to actual German/Brit cans?

I think I already did state my findings, and fairly kindly for good measure... My cans are, from what I could see, very similar to Carter's unrestored can, even if one as an oval tube in the spout, and the other has a round tube. Both surfaced in Europe, though. So let us not waste band on something that was already mentioned, as you can read above in this thread.

I wonder if the "mystery can" you have is an early prototype of one of those? Surely it isn't a later output? You don't think anyone as regimented as the German Army would allow anyone to start making gas cans with no info stamped on them after the WaffenAmpt inspectors told them to put them on do you? Heck, they'd of ended up making uniforms in some concentration camp probably!

I do not recall anyone stating that the mistery cans were made in Germany, so I don't feel it is worth talking of that option.

Hey, unless I missed it, would you be so kind to tell us the earlier date among the many mistery can pictures you have carefully observed while elaborating your theories on the mistery can? Any theater will do.

[Chuck Lutz]

Luca....so far I think the kind of mystery cans found in the States are primarily as I described. As far as I know, if Carter has a can with no hole in the tab on the cap, it's the only example there is....

As I stated, the cans that as I described that are the ones found here in the States were made in the States and those WITH DIFFERENT mfg.characteristics (like yous) were possibly made in Europe.

Instead of ignoring the manufacturing characteristics and how they relate to German/Brit cans vs the standard American gas can....get a grip her Luca, I'm not bragging about a miserable seven gas cans I own, I'm trying to get you to line 'em up and COMPARE the details and post the FINDINGS, not just say you have, compare them step by step as I asked.

Perhaps you choose not to compare the characteristics and either choose to ignore them because they punch some holes in your Euro-can theory, or because you didn't understand what I wanted you to compare....(hopefully the later). Either that or you are looking for an opportunity to brag about your collection of gas cans?

YES, the hole is centered on the tab of the cap on the mystery cans, it is centered on the USMC gas can....it is not centered on the German/Brit cans so which one resembles which one?

Mark's ICC info is what I have read/heard also.....but when the US Gov't received the examples of the German gas cans to copy, they were FIRST for military use or for sending overseas. Overseas sales would not require the ICC stamping.

The WHEELING can is interesting; it has PART of the ICC info...the "20-5-41" info required by ICC regs, but lacks the "5 L" designation we find on the later cans. So what do we interpret from that? They complied somewhat with the ICC reg, and certainly later WHEELING cans had all the info on them. So one assumption is that WHEELING began the ICC stamping and didn't quite include ALL the info the ICC required and later they did.

Now if you have a later WWII can with a mfg name stamped on it with none of the ICC info on it, please post it as this was the intent of the original question I posed.....

[lucakiki]

Luca....so far I think the kind of mystery cans found in the States are primarily as I described. As far as I know, if Carter has a can with no hole in the tab on the cap, it's the only example there is....

Maybe you should have said it's the only example I am aware of... Subtle difference, but still a difference.

Please, if any of you guys other than Carter owns mistery cans without the hole on the tab,do post about it on here, just to increase Chuck's awareness of this variant in your side of the pond.

Instead of ignoring the manufacturing characteristics and how they relate to German/Brit cans vs the standard American gas can....get a grip her Luca, I'm not bragging about a miserable seven gas cans I own, I'm trying to get you to line 'em up and COMPARE the details and post the FINDINGS, not just say you have, compare them step by step as I asked.

Perhaps you choose not to compare the characteristics and either choose to ignore them because they punch some holes in your Euro-can theory, or because you didn't understand what I wanted you to compare....(hopefully the later). Either that or you are looking for an opportunity to brag about your collection of gas cans?

Chuck, I have already posted that the only two mistery cans I have bear no strict similarities nor to the single USMC can I have left, nor to the few german cans I have ( one early, the others not so early), nor even to the Italian cans, which I looked just to confirm it is not a route worth following.. The quality of the handle assembly and welding is kind of questionable, and they have no holes, nor on the handle, nor on the tab. That is all that I can tell you: pictures would tell more, but that I cannot do at the moment.

YES, the hole is centered on the tab of the cap on the mystery cans, it is centered on the USMC gas can....it is not centered on the German/Brit cans so which one resembles which one?

Mark's ICC info is what I have read/heard also.....but when the US Gov't received the examples of the German gas cans to copy, they were FIRST for military use or for sending overseas. Overseas sales would not require the ICC stamping.

Why the hell should they send overseas the cans they had received from overseas to copy? With the amount of valuable shipping space necessary for other more important items, they would rather send overseas the jerrycans? Mmmmh....

As I stated, the cans that as I described that are the ones found here in the States were made in the States...

No, that was not proved yet. Yours is just a respectable opinion, not a proved fact beyond any reasonable doubt. Some seem to have doubts even on your side of the pond.
I do agree with the following quoted statement:
Gentlemen, the more I search for manufacturing evidence of the Mystery can here in the states, the more it seems the ICC rules either didn’t apply (how did they do that?), they were not followed, or the cans were not made here in the states. Now, if they were made outside of the states, they would not necessarily be marked and would certainly not need ICC marking. Furthermore, it would allow them to be made concurrent with the other cans in the 42-44 time period.

Even if not to the extent you required, I did at least give more than a fast look to my few cans, and more than once to be sure.. Would you now be kind enough to inform the readers of the earliest date you are aware of for a mistery can pictured on the field, whichever theater?

[Chuck Lutz]

I love the LOGIC of the last couple posts....the part where "Overseas sales would not require the ICC stamping"

Which has surfaced again in other posts much more recent than three years ago....but still rings true!

Is it as simple as it seems? Did the US Navy order the American Prototype "Mystery Can" from CONCO for shipment overseas to US Marines in the South Pacific? Did the wider use of subsequent contracts in the USA require the ICC info on those cans?

PS....I guess there are not many of the European Mistery Cans here in the USA....you know, the ones without a hole in the tab on the spout?

[gerrykan]

I have a US Army Regulations book around here somewhere that states that the US Army will comply with ICC regulations regarding hazardous shipments.
Of the US Navy Regulations that I have obtained, I have yet to find any such statement.

The fact that the US Army states that it will comply, could lead one to believe that they were exempt from the ICC regulations if they so chose.
Government agencies today are exempt from following OSHA(Occupational Safety and Health Administration) regulations, yet a lot of them voluntarily comply.

[gerrykan]

I should also add, that ICC(Interstate Commerce Commission) regulations governed items shipped via Common Carrier.

A Common Carrier is a transport company that accepted shipments from anyone willing to pay for their services. Mostly railroads and trucking companies.

[lucakiki]

Roy, I do not recall, in the recent or not so recent past, of anyone actually making a distinction between American mistery can and European mistery cans: only very recently this definition has been introduced.
Are you aware if there is a consensus of sort, or if there is only one author who decided by himself that this would be the rule to follow from now on, rather than mantaining the old school definition?
Robin ,in his very accurate explanation of the mistery cans, did not yet use the definition of American mistery can.
I would like to hear your position, just as I would like to hear the thoughts of other overseas members with a keen interest in the issue.

[Chuck Lutz]

From the very beginning, those who have the American Prototypes noticed that there were distictive differences between them and the British clamshell cans.....and they posted them. They also noted the differences in the standard Wehrmachtkannister and the American Prototype cans....and them posted them. The noted the differences in them from the European "Mistery Cans"...and they posted them. They also noted the SIMILARITIES between the American Prototypes and the USMC cans....and they posted them.

Luca has desperately clung to the incorrect fantasy that there is only ONE TRUE MISTERY CAN.....and it is of European origin (Perhaps a German Prototype or one just not marked?). For the entire time this 'difference of opinion' has circulated, I have always called these different cans with no markings on them with the big "X" that are generally found to be RED painted....(like just about EVERY gas can you could buy in America) the "Mystery Can" to differentiate between whatever the hell those cans in Europe are from the different ones found almost exclusively in the USA, or Canada (our neighbor) or Australia (where the Marines hung out) or New Zealand (where the Marines hung out).

I think now that anyone who wants to shuffle through a gazillion posts and track the CHARACTERISTICS of the cans Luca has in Europe like this (his "Mistery Cans") and those of the ones found here, in Australia and in New Zealand will recognize the lineage of these cans. The European ones look primarily like the eventual German Wehrmachtkannister and the American Prototypes (Mystery Cans) are different and show a lineage to the USMC cans and the eventual standardized American gasoline jerry can.

Again, the call for "the Cavalry" to come to the rescue and to ignore what has come to light over the years when they are probably reading all this and just not commentating....on the other hand, if you were to actually READ what Roy and what Robin have posted....what Dom K. has posted and what several others who have cans and who have posted photos have actually SAID, it does not seem to me that they feel that the American Prototype (Mystery Cans) are in fact some of the European "Mistery Cans" or any such blather....but unlike some, I will be happy to let them speak for THEMSELVES.

Would you mid posting your own answers to these two simple questions?
1) What is"the old-school" definition if you don't mid refreshing everyone's mind again?
2) Do you STILL feel there is NO distinction between the American Mystery Can and the European Mistery Can?

[lucakiki]

Would you mid posting your own answers to these two simple questions?

1) What is"the old-school" definition if you don't mid refreshing everyone's mind again?
2) Do you STILL feel there is NO distinction between the American Mystery Can and the European Mistery Can?

Sure! And then, if you do not mind let us hear the other guys opinions. I know yours, since 2006.

1) The "old school" definition is Mistery cans. Plain and simple. Not American mistery cans, and not European mistery cans.
2) Robin demonstrated how there are some Mistery cans that appear as unmistakeably made by Conco. These, among mistery cans, are those that have a certain American Origin.
Other mistery cans, no matter where they surface, are not of patent Conco manufacture, so their origin cannot yet be determined: hence no distinction between American and non -american, for those.

Who cares about the two lousy cans I have. There is plenty of cans, all over the world, that have features that do not point out at Conco manufacture, but qualify for the Mistery can definition, as used in this forum so far
. They show up everywhere.
I was among the first ones to enquire about those cans, even posting some PTO pictures .
No one seemed to care at the beginning, but then some interest was gained.
One thing is for sure: German or Italian origin was never an issue.
Some guys took in consideration the possibility that these cans might have been manufactured not in USA, and not in Europe.
By calling these cans American, one would ipso facto exclude the respectable conjecture that some of those cans might be not-american made. As a matter of fact no one ever referred to this kind of cans as American mistery cans, until very recently, when one author out of the blue sneaked in this kind of definition.

The author, Chuck Lutz, wrote that he will be happy to let the other guys speak for THEMSELVES.
I would be even more happy if he will actually allow them to speak for themselves, without innuendos, without wisecracks, without calling them "the Cavalry", and most of all without imposing his own new definitions before at least checking that these have been acknowledged and adhered to.
Let us see if he will actually wait for the other guys' answers.
I will.

[Chuck Lutz]

Why wait?
You just threw in the towel...

1) American mystery cans are American Prototypes made in America...
2) Round spout galvanized unmarked cans are American Prototype water cans....
3) Unmarked cans without the American Prototype design characteristics found elsewhere are different and hence, are not made in America...
4) Since this issue was raised....the differences between the European Mistery Cans and the American Mystery Cans has been pointed out to you in almost every exchange and that nomenclature is used to separate those found over there from these over here, despite your contstant attempts to use only ONE term to describe what everyone else sees as two DIFFERENT design styles. I have never heard the term "old school definition" (applied to all unmarked cans) until yesterday so that's a new straw to grab ahold of but it is only YOUR contention no one else has mentioned.
5) There may very well be "plenty of cans, all over the world, that have features that do not point out at Conco mfger" but are not like the ones found in America, New Zealand, Australia or in photos of Tarawa or perhaps other Marine photographs.

Here are two that I am fairly certain are....NOT the American Prototype cans....

German Mystery Can.jpg (204.28 KiB) Viewed 367 times

Reichs Chancellery Fuhrer Bunker.jpg (250.07 KiB) Viewed 387 times

[lucakiki]

Lutz, you just ignore things.
The german kanister in that picture only shows the side with no information, but the information is on the other side. We already know you have problems spotting features on fire extinguisher handles,but no one will blame your sight for not spotting a feature on the non visible side of any item,be they jerrycans, jeeps, ships..
Of course it is there, even if not visible. Just for the record.

All over this forum, and even before this forum was created, people have been refering as Mistery cans to those cans with NO visible information, the x stamping, clamshell construction, and that kind of trapezoidal spout which is common feature to German,Italian, British, USMC war time cans.
No round spout has ever been considered a Mistery can in this environment where the definition has always been used, by all concerned until a few days ago.
Any can whose origin is unknown might be considered as a mistery can, but not here.
Here, as any one can read, by mistery cans we have NEVER meant a can of unknown origin, but a can of unknown origin that also has , all at the same time, the features mentioned above.

Also that pathetic reference to throwing the towel only shows the useless approach typical of your discussions.
It is not a struggle, a competition, a fight that one should win or lose.
The only winner is correct information, when this is reached.
You always manage to turn any discussion in a fight, usually triggered by your sneaking in again, transversely, a concept that you had unsuccesfully tried to impose previously.
Why you do that is not my problem:it is YOUR problem, and I could not care less, if not for the many threads that ended up with a lock as a consequence...

Now, before also this thread gets locked, would you for once be consequent, and do what you just preached?
Give them at least a chance, will you?

I will be happy to let them speak for THEMSELVES.