Re: WisDOT ban on Ex-Mil Veh. (AB-592) (TRANS-123)

[Kevin Lockwood]

Keep fighting Paul.
I agree that it will take folks from Wisconsin to win this. I am urging other parties to contact the MVPA BoD not to call random officials in your state. I hope I have not suggested otherwise.
Paul do you know where MV magazine has been in all this???
Kevin L.

[undysworld]

Kevin,

MV magazine? In short, no, I have no idea. I contacted them early on, like late '07 if memory serves me. They expressed zero interest.

If anybody, MV magazine included, wants to contact me for an info, or to join forces, please give them my contact info: undy@mhtc.net or (608) 437-3465.

As a further update, two days ago I heard from another WI resident (Jim A.) who owns an M35 which he has been refused registration of. He has filed an appeal with the Dept. of Admin. over this. He submitted his registration application early last year ('09), and DOT waited several months to even return his submitted paperwork.

Another fellow from Manitowoc waited over 6 months before DOT claimed that they mailed his refused application back "but it must have gotten lost"!!! They finally supplied him with copies. His appeal will commence next Tuesday.

For any of you who are living in the same economic world as I am, this seems like an unexcuseable waste of public money. DOT already lost their first appeal. This fight has gone on for over 2 years. Unbelievable...

[Dave K.]

Do you have a list of all of the people who have been refused title? If so could you please forward it on as I'm interested in seeing how many and what type of vehicles. Thanks, Dave.

dklink at phmining.com

[gerrykan]

....DOT took away your license plate, and gave you a title marked "NON-ROADWORTHY VEHICLE"....

Although non-Wisconsin residents' effective actions are limited, this could have far reaching consequences.
As squirrelly as the Missouri Department of Revenue can be on vehicle titling, (If you bought a Wisconsin vehicle) I think submitting this type of title would probably be red-flagged if you wanted to buy plates for it, requiring inspection of the vehicle by the State Highway Patrol.

[dcthompson]

Legislation such as this could never pass in New Hampshire, home of the independent Yankee. The State's motto: "Live Free or Die." I moved to NH from California in large part because I saw an intolerable erosion of individual rights and freedoms.

I don't care what your political persuasion is, but believe the statement should apply to all US citizens--It reminds me of the snake flag with the "Don't Tread on Me" slogan that was introduced by Benjamin Franklin, and made famous by Continental Colonel Christopher Gadsden of South Carolina. We all need to remind our congressional representatives that the government works for us, to serve the common good. We can all differ on the exact meaning of what "common good" means, but my view is that it covers the inalienable rights covered in the constitution, which (again, my opinion) should cover defense, the public infrastructure (e.g., roads and bridges), our common environment, and adequate food, shelter and healthcare for all. The government should NOT be protecting ourselves from ourselves--which is what I assume the Wisconsin legislation is about.

For those of you in Wisconsin, I encourage you to VISIT your state representatives. They are easily accessible, and typically just normal folks--juggling the crap handed to them by the entrenched bureaucrats who actually run the government. A single call from a rep or state Senator to a bureaucrat can typically elicit a response (e.g., some action).

In Vermont, were you to ask a citizen how to gain an audience with the Governor, the response would typically be: Go in the front door of the Statehouse, turn left, go down the hall, and his office is on the left. A joke? No. Today you would have to first go through the metal detector.

Dan

[undysworld]

Dave, PM sent w/ info.

Roy,

Thank you for understanding my situation.

Some people think we Pinzgauer owners should just have parked our trucks in our yards and planted flowers in 'em. I didn't really see that I had any option besides to fight DOT in court.

I was just sitting here in my little cage singing, and DMV came poking sticks. We asked nice, and they kept poking sticks. So I quit asking nice.

Now DOT is pi$$ed off? That's truly unfortunate, but is it fair, or my fault? I'd suggest no and no.

Now, all of us Pinzgauer owners who fought 'em are re-registered and re-titled with zero restrictions on our operation, just like before.

So, any of the rest of you willing to slog this out? Or would you rather start planting flowers...

[Dave K.]

Dave, PM sent w/ info.

Thanks for forwarding Paul, will respond to you shortly.

So, any of the rest of you willing to slog this out? Or would you rather start planting flowers...

Given that Wisconsin is fast becoming the Midwest's California I would say that it's the "green" thing to do . . . .

Once again, I'm not against Pinz's at all but I think we have shot ourselves in the foot with coming at them on two fronts. Wisconsin seems very divided between the "north and south" in terms of clubs which I don't understand but this may have fostered the approach which has been taken--i.e. poor comms between the two groups and two bills. Wrong take on things? Let me know but I think there has to be more participation between the two groups.

As for MV magazine--they seem to be fence sitters who like to take our money and not really be part of what's happening in Wisconsin much less the MV hobby. I would recommend sending them a message by cancelling your subscription--everybody doing so if they are not going to lead the fight or at least use their publishing vehicle to assist--and likely their connections.

[undysworld]

Yesterday, the Wis. Dept. of Administration, Div. of Hearings and Appeals accepted the appeal of another Pinzgauer owner who was denied registration.

DOT tried to prevent the appeal, arguing that it was not a "timely" appeal. It was delayed because the owner never received the original refusal back. According to DOT, they mailed it but it got "LOST" in the mail. It was over 6 months before he got even copies back from DOT. Hmmm.

Another fellow with a U.S. Deuce & 1/2 from Lancaster, WI had the same delay tactic used. His appeal is scheduled for March. Double Hmmm.

I met yesterday with Rep. Steinbrink, the Chair of the Assy. Transportation Committee, to discuss an amendment to include an option for normal registration for HMVs in AB-592, in addition to the 'parade' registration it allows, as written.

[Dave K.]

Is there any concern on the part of other car collectors here Paul? If understand things correctly the issue is safety so it could be argued that a model T or A is unsafe or perhaps an old fire engine or other vehicles. Was this cited during any of the discussions?

[undysworld]

Dave,

There is concern by some of the collector folks here, but an unfortunate amount feel like it's just "somebody else's problem, at least for now".

But in fact, at my appeal, another Madison fellow testified that DOT had tried to keep him from registering his '70 Leland Mini just a few years earlier (also a FMVSS-exempted import vehicle). After he initiated an appeal, DOT agreed to register him. after all. I'd think that would be considered a collector car, even if it's not a Ford or a Chevy? He sure considers himself an enthusiast.

DOT has been trying to outlaw all kinds of "fringe" vehicles, apparently, for some time. It seems that they've been cautious enough to not say much. IIRC, during a DOT hearing in July, 2009, they assured collector car enthusiasts that their cars would not be targeted. Then again, in a Nov. 2007 Wis. State Journal article, DOT's Linda Lewis said it was because of the VIN numbers didn't indicate FMVSS-compliance. She said "It really wasn't a change. It was really just to (do) what...we should have been doing." How many pre-'68 vehicles have VIN numbers which show FMVSS-compliance? Zero.

Something changed, and it wasn't Wisconsin's laws. It was only DOT trying out a new interpretation.

And yeah, we've tried to talk reason to DOT. It hasn't worked. That's what got my Senator so upset that he introduced his bill to force DOT to register HMVs.

[Ben Dover]

It appears that the owners of the imported Foreign manufactured MV's are being a bit over creative and are not all on the same page.

[undysworld]

Hi Ben,

Speaking as an owner of an imported Foreign manufactured MV, in what way do you think I am being over creative?

How are our problems different? Granted, Pinzgauers are exempted from FMVSS for different reasons than your U.S. army vehicle. But the similarities are much greater.

In short, virtually NO ex-military vehicles were required to have certified as having met FMVSS, whether U.S. ex-military or foreign. They may have had the right safety equipment or not, but they were not required to do so. (I have heard of some ex-mil Chevy Blazers and Pickups which reportedly have FMVSS labels. ??)

And I don't think we're all on different pages. I believe I speak for most every Pinzgauer owner (and likely lots of U.S. ex-Mil. folks too) in feeling that many of the smaller ex-military vehicles (Jeeps, Blazers, Pickups), from whatever country, are likely safe enough to allow to register for virtually unrestricted use, provided they substantially meet the Wisconsin Equip. Requirements. He11, they've been allowed to operate unrestricted here for decades.

To a degree, I think it's somewhat understandable that DOT would seek to place some limits on the larger, or the tracked, vehicles. I don't think any of us really want someone driving down the highway in a Stryker or an M-1, and I'm certain the DOT doesn't. But so far, even the DOT hasn't shown statistics to prove that even the bigger trucks are statistically unsafe.

If I've come off as a far-out fanatic, it may be because through my past 2+ years experience with WisDOT, I've learned a lot about the laws. I don't want to see anybody lose rights which they've been able to enjoy in Wis. for decades. I see AB-592, as giving away too many of those rights, without DOT giving us good legal arguments why. So I'm arguing to keep those rights.

And just so you don't think that I'm just out here bitching, I've been working with several Senators and Assy. Reps and recently Jeff Rowsam (Catman) to see that we retain as many rights as we can.

I don't see merely standing united as a benefit, if that means us losing substantial rights just because DOT wants us to. We need to craft a fair law, and then stand as one.

So, again, how am I beng over creative? You wanna see documents?

[undysworld]

This just in:
There will be a Public hearing Jan. 20th, 2010 to discuss both bills before the Senate:



This is Zigmunt's (DOT's) Bill:

Senate Bill 404 has been scheduled for a public hearing by Committee on Transportation, Tourism, Forestry, and Natural Resources in the Senate. Date/time: January 20, 2010 at 10:01 AM. Location: 300 Southeast.
Bill History: http://www.legis.state.wi.us/2009/data/SB404hst.html
Relating to: registration of former military vehicles.


This is Erpenbach's Bill:

Senate Bill 392 has been scheduled for a public hearing by Committee on Transportation, Tourism, Forestry, and Natural Resources in the Senate. Date/time: January 20, 2010 at 10:01 AM. Location: 300 Southeast.
Bill History: http://www.legis.state.wi.us/2009/data/SB392hst.html
Relating to: registration of former military vehicles.

[Kevin Lockwood]

Thanks for the update! Keep up the great work.

[undysworld]

The hearing next week is to get public input on several bills currently before the Senate. It is not an executive meeting of the committee, however. So no official decisions will be made, as I understand things. But as such, it is important that people who are concerned, stand up and voice thier opinions.

I will be there.

Paul