SCREWDRIVER VARIATIONS

[Greg Hines]

Chuck,

Last time I looked 1945 is before 1950, as is 1946 and 1947. You are either saying this screwdriver is not period correct (because of some unknown handle-swapper) or you must admit said screwdrivers were produced before the drawing was updated. It is really impossible for me to score any points with you moving the goal posts all over the field.

BTW thanks for your concern about my toolkit but it is a motor pool kit and I have a screwdriver just like this one (including the USAAF stamp) but just marked USofA though (no stock number) in it.

Greg

[Chuck Lutz]

I think you are trying to VALIDATE the screwdriver for "motorpool" use (during WWII?) with absolutely NO evidence of when the 41 marking came along.....simply with the USAAF marking.....which could have been put on AFTER WWII.

That just does not work. How that handle got on there with that marking is not known or if it is a replacement or anything, that is not my concern, however.....until the introduction of the 41 marking is dated.....that screwdriver is still a "maybe". It seems the ink-stamped IRWIN is the only version currently seen in photos...

As for the USAAF/IRWIN-U.S. of A. marked one....same situation....both excellent candidates but still lacking verification like all the rest. Now if you have an ink-stamped USAAF stamped IRWIN.....that one would have to be considered correct....for a motorpool kit....but not a "factory kit".

How about those pics of other IRWINs with tube riveted handles?

[Greg Hines]

I think you are trying to VALIDATE the screwdriver for "motorpool" use (during WWII?) with absolutely NO evidence of when the 41 marking came along.....simply with the USAAF marking.....which could have been put on AFTER WWII.

Actually what I was trying to do is show you that the dates on the Willys drawing have no bearing on when Irwin actually started marking their screwdrivers like this.

That just does not work. How that handle got on there with that marking is not known or if it is a replacement or anything, that is not my concern, however.....until the introduction of the 41 marking is dated.....that screwdriver is still a "maybe". It seems the ink-stamped IRWIN is the only version currently seen in photos...

So a drawing by a company that didn't even make screwdrivers is more evidence to you that actual physical evidence?

As for the USAAF/IRWIN-U.S. of A. marked one....same situation....both excellent candidates but still lacking verification like all the rest. Now if you have an ink-stamped USAAF stamped IRWIN.....that one would have to be considered correct....for a motorpool kit....but not a "factory kit".

This might come as a shock to you but I actually prefer my tools to be "veterans". Put it this way, do you respect a veteran who has been there and done that more than a guy that never got out of basic training, or may not have even been in the military.

How about those pics of other IRWINs with tube riveted handles?

The only thing I'm currently inclined to provide you a picture of would get me booted from the Gee, so I won't.

Greg

[Chuck Lutz]

Greg...
This is very simple.....when did the 41 marking on the IRWIN begin?

1) There is nothing to indicate WHEN the 41 marking was started, so forget the WO drawing even exists....there is NOTHING to indicate WHEN the 41 marking on the IRWIN started.

2) The WO drawing says when it was REQUIRED.....once more, WHEN was your 41 IRWIN stamped with "USAAF"? 1945, or 1946 or 1947? It would need to be determined first WHEN the 41 was available I think, the addition of the USAAF could be postwar.

3) To use your example, a "veteran" who enlisted in 1946 or 1947 in the USAAF is......not a WWII veteran. An IRWIN stamped in 1946 or 1947 is not a "veteran" of WWII, it's a used postwar screwdriver that is perfect for a Korean War jeep toolkit perhaps?

4) If you do not have any photos of IRWINs with the tube rivets on them, I understand.

[lucakiki]

If there is a question about the 41 number appearing on the IRWIN before the 1950 requirement, you would have to look at the WO drawing once again....

You did not answer: can we state or can we not definitively state that a 41 number was not stamped on an Irwin before the date on Willys drawing?
If the answer is yes, how do we explain Greg H's screwdriver?
On that screwdriver, the gov. marking was stamped before the 1950 date, yes?

First, if you believe the STAMPED ink IRWIN is correct, then the 41 would not appear at the same time, so for whatever time period you think the inked handle version was used, the 41 would not have been used.

Not exactly so. I do believe that the stamped ink Irwin was available when the "Ford" picture was snapped, and that it was also available when they boxed the Greg K. toolkit. But I do not by that state that other styles could not be used at the same time. I can't say that, nor can I disprove it. If you can, please share.



Third, as Sean has staked out in his thread, and I have tried unsuccessfully in mine recently......there is nothing except the 1950 WO notation that addresses WHEN the 41 stamping was to be used. Anyone with evidence or proof to the contrary needs to pony it up.

For that reason we can't DEFINITIVELY say that it was or was not available during WWII. Those that include it as "Correct" in a kit are taking the position that if you can't prove it is NOT OK, then anything goes....a position that I know Luca is not in favor of. On the other hand, since we can't prove it was NOT available in WWII and bought by Willys or Ford for a factory kit (or even as a replacement by QMC/ORD for a motorpool kit), it is continued to be grabbed up when available for a decent price by those who feel it can reside in the "MAYBE" category for a little longer until more evidence surfaces.
That is oversimplifying things.
Those who chose to include a gov. stock marked Irwin in a WWII motorpool kit, can legitimately believe that a screwdriver marked with the same stock number mentioned in the manuals was actually available in the same time frame. They can believe how such a requirement was added on the WOA drawings later than the actual stamping was standard chez Irwin.

I have no idea as I said about the chronological use of the IRWN markings, however if the ink-stamped one in Greg K's 1945 Willys kit is highly valued as "evidence" for a late war Willys factory kit.....then the ink-stamped and only the ink-stamped IRWIN would seem to be acceptable for an IRWIN and the question of the 41 type is a mute one.
The ink stamped Irwin does have some evidence, as mentioned repeatedly.
Do you have evidence for the stamped on handle Irwins?
Do you have any evidence for the stamped on handle Irwins, that does not work for gov. stock stamped Irwins?

As far as another company making some of the tools under the IRWIN name, I don't believe that it is uncommon for companies to sub-contract them from other producers.....in Alloy Artifacts they mention that Vlchek made tools for other companies and "disguised" the markings to reflect that. Perhaps an ink-stamped IRWIN was made by a subcontractor that did not have permission to use the IRWIN logo in it's italicized and probably trademarked/copywrited version?

You suggested twice in this thread that some other company might have been making the tools under the Irwin name.
Personally,I do not recall objecting. I did however ask which this other company might be. So far no answer, maybe later.

[Roger]

Chuck,
My camera will not pull in close enough to see what I can see with my naked eye. You will just have to take my word for it. AS we are suppose to do with your statements. I can not recall you posting ONE of your own photos to back up your statements. You seem to be exempt!

I for one tire of your sinister "I am the only one that knows, everyone else is just plain wrong" additude.

You ask for information and photos to sort tools out, yet if it does not meet to your liking it is dismissed as, How do you know?? WELL, The pendulam swings both ways my friend!

I will sit in the sidelines for a while and do my own "How do you know?"

[Mark Tombleson]

Chuck,
My camera will not pull in close enough to see what I can see with my naked eye. You will just have to take my word for it. AS we are suppose to do with your statements. I can not recall you posting ONE of your own photos to back up your statements. You seem to be exempt!

I for one tire of your sinister "I am the only one that knows, everyone else is just plain wrong" additude.

You ask for information and photos to sort tools out, yet if it does not meet to your liking it is dismissed as, How do you know?? WELL, The pendulum swings both ways my friend!

I will sit in the sidelines for a while and do my own "How do you know?"

Roger, don't take Chuck's twisting and turning your words (or anyones for that matter) to be personal. I have banged heads with my friend Chuck for some years now and he is just trying to get at his version of the truth.

Chuck does have a problem posting photos... he knows I don't so he is welcome to send me any photos he has and I will post them for him (within reason Chuck).

I usually just ignore the barbs and bluntly tell him I will go with what I see as the facts. It is quite entertaining but does tend to piss off the moderators. Hi there guys! ......... Hi Mark!

[Roger]

Thanks for the words of encourgement Mark. I too try to ignore most statements. It just seems to be like beating your head against the wall!

And I know for a fact its not just the moderators Chuck pisses off!.....

I'm a pretty easy going guy. But, I am a man of my word and don't like being accused other wise!

[Chuck Lutz]

Roger.....I'm not saying "I KNOW!".....I'm saying "there is currently no proof of WHEN the 41 IRWIN was produced"....and so far that seems to be the situation.

[Greg Hines]

Greg...
This is very simple.....when did the 41 marking on the IRWIN begin?

1) There is nothing to indicate WHEN the 41 marking was started, so forget the WO drawing even exists....there is NOTHING to indicate WHEN the 41 marking on the IRWIN started.

I'm willing to bet a not inconsiderable sum it was between 1943 and 1948. I'm also sure an examination of the actual ORD/QMC drawing would be helpful.

2) The WO drawing says when it was REQUIRED.....once more, WHEN was your 41 IRWIN stamped with "USAAF"? 1945, or 1946 or 1947? It would need to be determined first WHEN the 41 was available I think, the addition of the USAAF could be postwar.

Ok, You asked for evidence that these screwdrivers were in service before 1950. Last time I checked 1947 was before 1950.

Also, technically the Willys drawing does not reflect when it was required it only gives the date the note was added that it was required.

3) To use your example, a "veteran" who enlisted in 1946 or 1947 in the USAAF is......not a WWII veteran. An IRWIN stamped in 1946 or 1947 is not a "veteran" of WWII, it's a used postwar screwdriver that is perfect for a Korean War jeep toolkit perhaps?

Possibly, but probably no more chance than that ink stamped Irwin you bought off Ebay was likely never in the military at all. I'll live on the edge until you can prove it wrong.

4) If you do not have any photos of IRWINs with the tube rivets on them, I understand.

Oh, I not only have the photos, I have the actual screwdrivers. But in all fairness the photos of the stock # one came from someone else.

I'll most likely post them some day but surely not at your request.

Greg

[Chuck Lutz]

If the 41 with USAAF on it was a product of 1947, then it is NOT a WWII factory or even a motorpool tool. Last time I checked 1947 was AFTER WWII.

Let's get some evidence on the table and not just argue over the date the 41 IRWIN was available....since that info is not yet here.....so that tool is left in the "MAYBE" category until proven "CORRECT" or "NO WAY"...

There does not seem to be a way to move the 41 IRWIN up or down in terms of it's "correct" status yet.

Anyone want to post the FORD drawing or the QMC/ORD drawing?

[Greg Hines]

If the 41 with USAAF on it was a product of 1947, then it is NOT a WWII factory or even a motorpool tool. Last time I checked 1947 was AFTER WWII.

Yes, I think some of us might be aware of the date WW2 ended. Again, the point was it is beyond a REASONABLE doubt before the 1950 date of the note on the Willys drawing. YOU asked for the evidence of such a thing in this very thread. Then when I present it, you pretty much say it's not real. An appropriate response would have been "Thanks, that's new information. I'll have to revise my theory." Instead of that you now dance around trying to say I'm an idiot for not knowing when WW2 ended. I'm sure your behaivor will encourage others to post information for you.

Let's get some evidence on the table and not just argue over the date the 41 IRWIN was available....since that info is not yet here.....so that tool is left in the "MAYBE" category until proven "CORRECT" or "NO WAY"...

Well, that's an improvement as earlier today ago you had it in the "NO WAY" column. Come on Fonzie, saying "I was wrong" is not that hard. If you are/were married you should have practice.

Anyone want to post the FORD drawing or the QMC/ORD drawing?

How about you? You are real good at screaming at everyone else to produce stuff. Let's see what you've got on the subject.

Greg

[Mark Tombleson]

If the 41 with USAAF on it was a product of 1947, then it is NOT a WWII factory or even a motorpool tool. Last time I checked 1947 was AFTER WWII.

I have a guy who is checking for military tool contracts after WWII. My theory right now that like the jeeps, other MVs and many other military items, there were no tools made for the military after contracts were delivered or terminated when the war was winding down.

So, I think that is why we have the numbering required around 1950, when a lot of the contracts were released for new equipment due to the new war... Korea.

Can anyone of you tell me why they would be delivering new tools under contract to the military during the post war period... when they were surplusing the very items you say may be delivered in the 1946 to 1950 time period?

We are still finding surplus (NOS) parts for the jeep and tools in cosmoline 60 plus years after the war.

You guys got to get a grip and put these tools into perspective.

[lucakiki]

Greg, I have been often accused in the past of interpreting other people's words.
I am sure you will forgive me if I do the same with you.
Did you , by any chance, use the 1947 USAAF screwdriver to show how an Irwin screwdriver had the government stock number stamped on it before the 1950 dated note on the Willys drawing?
That is the way I interpreted your words.

[Greg Hines]

...
Did you , by any chance, use the 1947 USAAF screwdriver to show how an Irwin screwdriver had the government stock number stamped on it before the 1950 dated note on the Willys drawing?
That is the way I interpreted your words.

Well, that's what I thought I was doing...

Greg