Mystery Cans Revisited, With Pic

[lucakiki]

I cannot scan pictures at the moment,but if anyone has Jeep in Bitish service, he can find the picture, for instance,on page 58. Or on page 67.
Or on page 71.

[Chuck Lutz]

Hey Mark....much as I'd like to go with the documentation you have on the amount of water and gas consumed on a daily basis, I can't really believe that the USMC tried to bring water onto the islands completely in 5gal jerry cans. If they could get aligators, jeeps, tanks and trucks on the islands, then they could probably get a water buffalo on the island also. I think I'd have to go with the idea that the 5gal water cans were refilled from a small towed tanker like a water buffalo once they were ashore, and that since the entire division wasn't landed simultaneously, that the need for water would not have been critical until a few hours or so after the beach was secured.

As far as the origination of the mystery cans with round spouts and oblong (German/Brit style) spouts goes.....does anyone really believe that they were made in England, shipped to the US Marines and taken to Tarawa? Since we haven't heard about the jerry cans being produced in Australia for Aussie forces, the supposition they were shipped there from England is a real stretch of the imagination. Early in the war the Brits were using "flimises", when they started using the standard Jerry can, they were involved in the African campaign and were not really able to supply things like gas cans to Australia one would imagine....

So how do we find the mystery cans on Tarawa? Well, it is the US Marines using them, the USMC didn't seem to purchase much from foreign suppliers, however the modification of the jeeps into Holden Ambulances in Oz demonstrates their ability to "get it done" when needed. On the other hand, the Brits were as known for marking their gear with the "WD" and Broadarrow as US and German forces were for marking theirs. Yet those Tarawa cans have no British markings....so no, I don't buy any theory they came from anywhere but the USofA.

How did they get to the ETO? Well, with some 22 million of them made and our extensive Lend Lease and give-away programs to support any and all allies, it would not be surprising at all to find that cans made in the USA (even the early mystery style) are to be found there. We sent vehicles, guns, ammo, all kinds of supplies directly to Africa for Operation Torch and when those forces met up with Monty's Eighth Army, we were probably supplying them and supporting them. From Oran and Casablanca our forces were operating with British forces and when Monty's forces went to the Italian campaign, anything they had in Africa could have gone with them. Gasoline and water being precious in a desert battle, I can see how the troops and commanders would have hoarded the cans to enable them to push the battle forward.

There are differences between the early German cans, the British cans and the several types of American-made mystery cans....many of the ones found here in the States have a distinct reddish paint on them often found under subsequent layers of paint....

For me to believe that the number of mystery cans found in the USA where we made 22 million of them are here because they were sent here from British or German sources is a hard one to buy into. Likewise the Tarawa mystery cans somehow having been aquired by the USMC from Australia and sent there by the Brits is even more of a stretch....

Until some documentation shows up, the more likely scenario is these are American-made early mystery cans....and they were even a part of the 22 million used to supply forces all over the globe in WWII.

[Mark Tombleson]

Let’s go back to the original thread.

http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.ph ... war#306149

As for Tarawa, I will be the first to admit the British did not even have a fleet in the Pacific during 1943, but every other US can is marked with the manufacturer and some data on it.

So, I cannot prove it was the British yet, but they are the best suspect as the USMC always got the hand me downs as they were low man on the totem pole. That photo shown in the above thread shows one of those offset cam locks on Saipan. Not the photo shows several of the cans used for water.

I have some great photos of the USMC water distilleries on Saipan with plenty of cam locks, both Conco and either Monarch or Cavalier as they are wide mouth. These photos are in the 4th Division Green Book.

Just to provide full disclosure here there were several small types of water purification units and two larger units.
The USMC used 20 - 2000 gpd water distillation units and 61 - 300 gallon one ton trailers to fill the 5 gallon cans. They also had 14 - 10000 gpd water distillation units serving 9 - 3 ton water trailers and 5 - 3 ton sterilized shower trailers. This is per Division per island assault.

[lucakiki]

Mark, all the mistery cans ( I call that way only the cans with the euro spout) I have ever seen had as original finish a yellowish sand colour. All of them were reasonably from the ETO.
And as said there is a number of pictures that show them being used along Biritish cans. The construction method is european. American items are always marked, as you mentioned.
As mentioned before, the tiny holes on one side or another of the tab prove nothing, as I have seen them with no hole at all.
I do not believe they are American made, but they are not W/i\ D marked, so they did not belong to the British Army. Their presence on the ETO is not any less evident than their presene on the PTO
There is more than one reason to call them mistery cans, that is a fact.

[Chuck Lutz]

So, Luca...it is your contention that all the unmarked "mystery" cans in the USA with the big "X" on them and no mfg. info on them were made in Europe? Also can you comment on the mystery cans here in the USA with the ROUND spout on them? I don't recall seeing any German or British or Italian cans with a ROUND spout on them, so these had to have been made here in the USA.....the European cans have that German-style oblong spout on them. (Note that I'm talking about a spout on a gas can, not to be confused with the BIG screw-in USA style gas can.....this style is a cam-lock like the German can but with a ROUND spout/lid).

Do you also have some examples of unmarked German, British, Italian jerry cans with a big "X" on them and the standard German-style spout on them? I think someone had a couple pics of early German cans, but they still had some markings on them....

I have no idea how many cans the British made with no W/D markings on them, but the USA made 22 million cans it seems and they are found all over the world....can you explain how with us shipping them everywhere that so many of these unmarked, and clearly early/non-US style cans are found in the USA and why the Marines are using them so EARLY in WWII in the Pacific?

How and why would so many have been sent TO the USA when we were clearly getting ready or had begun to make 22 million of them? I can understand the possibility of some German cans and some early British copies could have been sent to the US for evaluation and to copy, but it seems there are far too many here STILL to cover that supposition. Since the Marines had obviously been ISSUED enough for them to have shown up in the Tarawa photograph makes it unlikely they came from that source.

How the British who were in a very critical phase of the war could find the priority to ship jerry cans to Australia in time for the Marines to have been issued them for Tarawa is hard to fathom. Even more interesting is that they sent cans that were not even marked with the W/D????? The Brits DID make "Reverse Lend Lease" gear and delivered it to the US forces in Europe, they did NOT make, for instance, First Aid web pouches and send them to the USA for our troops to use.....they delivered them to US forces in Europe....so I don't buy that jerry cans made in England with NO markings on them were sent to the US where we find them today....or that for some reason the Marines ended up with them on Tarawa from this shipment.

Nope....the cans the Marines had and the cans found in decent numbers here in the USA were MADE IN THE USA and were simply EARLY designs that preceeded the ICC demands that they be marked. As far as I know, the ICC only had jurisdiction over the Interstate Commerce in the USA and if the cans were originally designed for Military Use outside of the USA then the ICC had no jurisdiction.....I would imagine that when the use of the jerry can here in the states began that the ICC had the right to demand the information required for all fuel containers going over the roads.

Mark....while the Marines in the Pacific were often based in OZ or NZ or on Maui, they were also using ships combat loaded direct from the USA, were they not? So items found on many islands could have come direct from the USA and not been loaded in a foreign port, right? Where were the outfits on Tarawa based, where were all the vessels combat loaded for the invasion of Tarawa, and where had the units in that invasion been prior to arriving there? This would go a long way to telling us where and how those mystery cans arrived in that photo. The photo is not of the original landing day, it is of the departure of the Marines I believe, so can you tell us how long the Marines were on Tarawa, how they were supplied during that time after the invasion, and where the ships that supplied material possibly seen in that photo were combat loaded?

[Mark Tombleson]

Mark....while the Marines in the Pacific were often based in OZ or NZ or on Maui, they were also using ships combat loaded direct from the USA, were they not? So items found on many islands could have come direct from the USA and not been loaded in a foreign port, right? Where were the outfits on Tarawa based, where were all the vessels combat loaded for the invasion of Tarawa, and where had the units in that invasion been prior to arriving there? This would go a long way to telling us where and how those mystery cans arrived in that photo. The photo is not of the original landing day, it is of the departure of the Marines I believe, so can you tell us how long the Marines were on Tarawa, how they were supplied during that time after the invasion, and where the ships that supplied material possibly seen in that photo were combat loaded?

Jeez Chuck, you know I cannot tell you how many contract Navy/USMC MBs were made by Willy-Overland, much less how much equipment was used or destroyed during on island invasion. Trot out those thousands of 5 gallon cans without markings you can prove were made in the USA.

[Robin]

The 2nd USMC Division fought on Tarawa, and they embarked in New Zealand for the invasion. I don't know if that's where the ships were loaded with supplies though. I still think that the mystery cans were made in either Austrailia or New Zealand under contract from the Navy. That could be why they are not marked with Broad Arrow/ War Department acceptance stampings, since they were never part of the UK inventory.
Since I live in Oregon, I am wondering if these cans turn up on the East Coast as well? I have 6-7 of them myself, and have seen more at West Coast military shows. The USMC would have come back to the USA on the West Coast, that could explain why all of the cans turn up here.

[Fortyeight2A]

I bought a can last summer at a flea market here in Colorado Springs. It has no markings on it, it has the big "X" with no square on the side, and the spout is a non-round cam-lock. Does this count as one of the "mystery" cans?

[Robin]

That sounds like the one we're talking about.

[bombtech]

Robin,
Yes mystery cans made it to the east coast. I just spent 4 days at the East Coast Rally, formerly the Aberdeen show, and bought one there. It is typical of the "Mystery" can types with large thin 'X' pattern on both sides, the oval euro spout, painted semi gloss green and absolutely no marks what so ever. What was more interesting tho was a mystery can that had a round spout and was fully galvanized ! This was very neat but not for sale. cheers,

[Chuck Lutz]

I've only got THREE of the mystery cans....two with the European spout and one with a ROUND spout....now if anyone has a ROUNd spout mystery can, let's hear about it....especially if they are in Australia, NZ, England, Europe or .......

Sounds like there are plenty of them around the USA.....would any outfit that got them EARLY in WWII have bothered to return cans of this style to the USA after the war when mountains of the "NEW" design cans were available everywhere, including here in the States?

Of the three I have, all are in good condition and NONE of them are like the German or British cans I have.....does that tell us anything?

As far as the Aussies or Kiwi's making them for the Navy......the design is DIFFERENT from the British cans so I find it interesting to think that especially for the USN, they would change the design......

Remember those First Aid pouches for the web belt? They are marked "US" on the front and have British mfg. markings on the back, so the Brits DID mark what they made for us....so if the Aussies and Kiwis made these cans for the US Navy....why no markings? The cans the American mfgers made for the US Navy DO have the mfg markings on them.....

[lucakiki]

So, Luca...it is your contention that all the unmarked "mystery" cans in the USA with the big "X" on them and no mfg. info on them were made in Europe? Also can you comment on the mystery cans here in the USA with the ROUND spout on them? I don't recall seeing any German or British or Italian cans with a ROUND spout on them, so these had to have been made here in the USA.....the European cans have that German-style oblong spout on them.

I do not recall anyone saying anything about European cans with a round spout. Ever. Can you quote otherwise?
When discussing mistery cans, I and others always made reference to the unmarked european spouted cans, and I will stick to that.
European spout, two halves construction, big X, no marking. Period.

I have no idea how many cans the British made with no W/D markings on them, but the USA made 22 million cans it seems and they are found all over the world....can you explain how with us shipping them everywhere that so many of these unmarked, and clearly early/non-US style cans are found in the USA and why the Marines are using them so EARLY in WWII in the Pacific?

How and why would so many have been sent TO the USA when we were clearly getting ready or had begun to make 22 million of them? I can understand the possibility of some German cans and some early British copies could have been sent to the US for evaluation and to copy, but it seems there are far too many here STILL to cover that supposition. Since the Marines had obviously been ISSUED enough for them to have shown up in the Tarawa photograph makes it unlikely they came from that source.

How the British who were in a very critical phase of the war could find the priority to ship jerry cans to Australia in time for the Marines to have been issued them for Tarawa is hard to fathom. Even more interesting is that they sent cans that were not even marked with the W/D????? The Brits DID make "Reverse Lend Lease" gear and delivered it to the US forces in Europe, they did NOT make, for instance, First Aid web pouches and send them to the USA for our troops to use.....they delivered them to US forces in Europe....so I don't buy that jerry cans made in England with NO markings on them were sent to the US where we find them today....or that for some reason the Marines ended up with them on Tarawa from this shipment.

.

You do not buy the idea that those mistery cans surfacing on the PTO area or in the USA might be made elsewhere than the USA ? Great!
I do not buy the idea that the same kind of cans surfacing in the ETO area might have been manufactured in the U.S..
Mainly, because of the construction technique,so typically European.
As mentioned more than once, the position of the hole on the lid tab, or lack of said hole, does not give any clue, as I have seen them both ways...

Main feature of mistery cans is the total absence of national marking.
That is a fact.
I had posted ages ago about cans otherwise identical to the mistery cans, but with some marking on them, and I posted a picture of one, above. I am not saying anything, other than they existed.
As many collectors I will gladly welcome any step to the mistery can solution. For the time being the european spouted mistery cans keep being just that: mistery cans. I cannot take any of your points as a step to the solution, unless I failed to see the revealing statement in your notes.

[Greg Hines]

Luca,

The other revealing fact about the mystery cans is that they are pretty much exact copies of an early type of German can. So either the Germans supplied unmarked examples in quantity to the US Marines, the ETO and to units in the US or somebody reverse engineered them, we'll go with the reverse engineering theory. Without the definitive proof documentation I would submit that that Chuck's answer of these being made in the US is by far the most likely. I say that because the most likely source of origination that best accounts for them being in the PTO, ETO and in the US (in quantity) is the US.

To get the definitive answer we need to determine were to look. The US companies that made cans that are still around seem to know almost nothing useful about their wartime activities so they are no help. Most likely this can was either procured by the Quartermaster Corp or the Marines. Perhaps someone near Fort Lee could go do some detailed research at the Quartermaster Museum.

Not sure where to start with the Marines, surely someone else does though.

Greg
GPW219419

[Chuck Lutz]

Greg: YES, the jerry can as WE know it WAS reverse engineered. The Brits were using the same rectangular "flimsies" design the US was using which were pretty lousy and captured some German cans and sent them to the UK to "reverse engineer them". Is there any reason that you would not believe that the Brits then sent samples or the German can or of their copy to the US to get mass-production here to build them? I'm sure that the US found that the simple construction technique could be improved on and the US design was born....but not before the evolution of design through the USMC style and the final US style occured.....would anyone not then believe that the "mystery" cans were the first almost direct copy of the cans they recieved and the later design was the improvment?

Luca: While there are at least THREE different styles of "Mystery cans" found in the US, there seems to be only ONE of that design found outside the US.

Is it your contention that while these three types are NOT like the British or German styles, that they were made in Europe? Further, that at least ONE of those European made designs that are found ONLY in the US and are NOT found in Europe were still made in Europe?

Not very likely.

[lucakiki]

Greg, if they were U.S. made, for sure they were early, as they are so amazingly similar to the early 81938, 1939) German cans, while the pattern that actually sticked was the american kind of construction. This pattern is the same for any kind of spout that we can find.
Being undated, the only way to have a rough idea is dated pictures. If memory doesn't fail me, 1943 is the earlier date on the ETO. Have you any clue for PTO?
And has any one a clue about the meaning of those marked mistery cans, wherever they were made?