WLA electrical sys troubles...

[pierino]

ok, at the end of restoration, I still have some electr sys troubles.

I will try to describe them at my best.

type V.

1) without starting engine, with SW in 3rd positon (service lights), headlight correctly comes on, but generator signal light goes out... is that correct?

2) still with engine out, I had more trouble with GENERATOR FIELD SW (4760-44A) installed: veryfing the correct operation of the sw, I found that coming back from 3rd position to to 2nd and 1st, both oil and gen signal lights go out... I have to come back to OFF posn to "reset" the sys, and have them correctly operating again.

I tried two NOS 4760-44A switches, and the above happens with both of them. at this time, I removed the switch, and system operates correctly (with the exception of point 1) )

I will try to trouble shoot more problems with engine on in the next days, as I have no more time available now...

I hope that somebody could help me in that... I double checked the switch, and every single connection... ...but problem is that I don't have any previous experience with Harleys...


thank you,

maurizio

[pierino]

any help?



ciao
maurizio

[John W. Rymark]

Hello My Friend,

It's sad, but for electrical problems most people stay away. I'm sure we'd all like to help, but a bad connection, wire out of place and the entire logic of the system is upset. Most respectfully, I would look at my wiring harness and meticulously trace each wire connected to the swithc to see if it is where it is supposed to be. It is very easy to be connecting the wires to the switch and to be putting the wrong wire on a switch connection. I did it with my Indian on restoration. I was lucky to catch it on reconfirming each connection. So had no problems.

On the operation. You know you should be looking at the manual for which lights (generator etc.) come on with each switch position. I know you have good manuals. One step at a time my friend. Slowly.

Best of luck. If you fly me to Italia, feed me good Italian cooking, allow me to look at the pretty women, I would be happy to assist you with your electrical problem over a glass of wine.

[1stCAVREG]

Hello Maurizio,
You may have already taken care of your issue but I will try to offer you some assistance.

With the engine off (not running), the generator light should be “on” in all positions. It should not matter if you are turning the switch from 1-2-3 or from 3-2-1, motor off – light on.

You have not said what happens to the generator light in positions 1 & 2 when the motor is running (without going to position 3). I should expect that the generator light should start out “on” and go “off” at running speeds (20 mph & up).

If this is correct, then your standard relay is okay and maybe the field relay is also okay.

Leaving the field relay aside, especially since the bike will run without it, let’s look at positions 1 and 2 versus 3. Positions 1 & 2, without the field relay, are using only the regulating coil of the generator. Position 3 activates the generator’s shunt coil.

The standard relay’s upper set of points control the generator light on your dash. The generator light gets its current from the battery through the ignition switch through the bulb to ground through the relay’s upper points. When the upper points are opened, the ground is broken and the light goes out.

In operation, positions 1 or 2, without the field relay, will open the relay upper points only when the generator induces enough current to magnetize the relay’s core and draw the relay’s points’ arm down to the core. This action opens the upper points breaking that ground and closing the lower set of points thus allowing the battery to begin charging.

Looking at position 3 & the generator shunt coil, turning the switch to 3 (motor off or low idle), current is passed immediately into the shunt coil but, properly functioning, will have no impact on the relay or the generator light (light remains on). The shunt coil’s purpose is to create more magnetic fields for the armature to cut and induce a greater current to offset the draw of the headlamp and tail lamp. The light goes off when the motor goes above a low idle.

Anyway, that is a properly functioning position three and shunt coil. However, in your case, something is activating your relay when the motor is off (causing it to open the generator light and closing the lower points). It may be an improperly wired generator. A possible way to help isolate this is to remove the wire to the generator’s “S” terminal and turn the position to 3 and watch the light (note: the wire to the “S” terminal is hot when the switch is turned to 3 and should not be allowed to touch anything).

Once the position 3 issue is corrected you can check the field relay.

A brief history on the field relay, initially the 42WLA did not have a blackout drive lamp and all was fine. Late in 1942 the blackout drive lamp was added and all seemed fine except the 42WLA’s battery was drained prematurely whenever the drive lamp was used for extended periods. The solution was the field relay added in late 1943. This relay, like the standard relay, activates the generator’s shunt coil to create more magnetic fields for the armature to cut and induce a greater current to offset the draw of the blackout lamps.

When switching from position 2 to 3, the shunt coil’s current is switched from being provided by the field relay to being provided by the ignition switch.

I have not fully studied a field relay so this is a swag (stupid wild ass guess). I am guessing that when position 2 is active, the field relay is only active when the blackout drive lamp is turned on. This would mean the shunt coil is activated at will in position 2 and not just because position 2 is on like position 3.

[pierino]

Hi friends!


thank you very much for your inputs (no, I didn't solve my problems yet) ...

I didn't have time this week to go thinking about the problem, but I will soon do my job. I will make a video also to show what's happening exactly.

1stcavreg, thank you for your deep considerations... I'm sure they will be so useful, because I too think that responsibilities might be with the gen...


soon back to you!

ciao
maurizio

[pierino]

Hello Maurizio,
You may have already taken care of your issue but I will try to offer you some assistance....

I should say, very valuable assistance as usually!

I found this morning some time to go having the suggested test.

here you have two videos: in the first one, you will have a look at the described problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9WMToCWLbI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxWk2PzYaxo

with the GENERATOR FIELD SW (4760-44A) removed, I wasn't able to duplicate problem on going back from posn 3 to 2 and 1 to off.

BUT... in the second video, with "S" wire on the gen isolated, the problem doesn't show: this is an evidence of bad generaotr wiring, correct?

...I assembled the GEN from ALL nos parts... but I had final trimming done by someone else... so, I can't be really sure that no mistakes were done in the final phase (well...I can't be sure of my job either... but, if the professional that made the final adjustment didn't notice a mistake... well, then problem is still with him! )

before starting bike again I will go through GEN again... it's very annoying to take GEN out again... but that's it. then, I will assemble it again, and I will make tests engine ff or running, then back with FIELD SW.

hopefully, I will have new results then...

a BIG thank you!

ciao
maurizio

[1stCAVREG]

Yes, it does sound as if the trouble is within the generator. It sounds as if when current when applied to the "S" terminal (switch position 3), current is passing out "R" to the generator side of the relay and magnetizing the relay's core. You might want to check the shunt coil's wiring and the insulation between "R" & "S" (the two terminals should be insulated from eacg other).

[pierino]

You might want to check the shunt coil's wiring and the insulation between "R" & "S" (the two terminals should be insulated from eacg other).

ok, a little update (I'm sure that leaving reports on our troubles, it may be useful to someone else..).

I took off the GEN, and - as you imagined - there's continuity between the two terminals: unfortunately, I didn't realize it before assembling the GEN on the engine (nor realised the professional that made the final arrangement on the GEN... ).

now, I will further investigate.

thank you!

maurizio

[pierino]

well...

it's almost one year ago when I faced some electrical problems with my WLA.

from then... a new full time job (when I'm saying full time, it's because while I'm flying by night carrying parcels over Europe, I sleep during the day... )... some trouble here and there.. etc... so, my "new" Harley rested awaiting better times.

in the meantime, I had her registered, and a new plate is now on (BIG satisfaction...)... also, a wonderful plate suggesting the old vehicles club membership is now fastened to the scabbard holder...

but...

electrical problems are well away from being solved.

I had my solid state cut out relay changed with an original one and, recently, I placed an uncorrect (for type V) NOS keyed switch on the dashboard (to avoid inadvertent turning on of the switch ... by people browsing around...).
doing this job, I double checked all wirings and connections...

but...

1st part:

engine off. turning switch to POSN 1, the GEN light DOESN'T light. turning to POSN's 2 and 3, GEN light is always out (I double checked the lamp, of course), but lights are operating normally.
unfortunately, turning back the switch to POSN's 2 and then 1 and then off, headlight and taillight remain ON. I found the problem being in the points in the cut out relay that close: placing a piece of paper between, the problem doesn't show, but the GEN is still out.

following 1stCAVREG suggestions, I had the GEN checked TWICE. ...but I still think it being the source of my troubles.

I've no ability to bench test it (made all by NOS parts): could you suggest a shop (maybe in Europe, but also in the States is fine) with clair competency on WLA generators (I want to spend money only to be 100% sure!) to test it?

I will have more time i the week end for further tests.

THANK YOU!

maurizio

[1stCAVREG]

Hello Maurizio,

Contact Steve Slocomb at steve@vlheaven.com. He is located in Kent England and owns VL Heaven (http://www.vlheaven.com/index.html). VL's also use the 32E generator. Either he can rebuild it for you or refer you to someone closer than the US.

When you first posted your issue, you said the light went off with motor off & switch in position 3. Now it appears you are saying the light is always off, regardless of switch position. The generator will not cause this.

With engine off, the generator light should always be on. The generator light gets its power from the ignition switch and its ground from the relay. The relay should always ground when the motor is off or, when the motor is running, when the generator is inducing voltage below the battery voltage.

First test the generator lamp will turn on and off at the relay end of the lamp wire with the relay removed. Take the black wire off the relay (this is the one that should terminate at the generator lamp terminal), turn the switch to position 1 (you might want to place a piece of paper between the ignition points), and ground the black wire to the motor and then release. The lamp should light on and off. No other lamp should light and go off except the oil lamp should light.

If that is correct, with the paper between the relay's lower points and no paper between the upper points, touch the generator lamp wire to its relay terminal and release. Again the light should light and go off.
End Part 1, this post is limiting my diaglog.

[1stCAVREG]

Part 2

Test the relay's ability to function the generator lamp. Remove all wires from the relay and connect the generator lamp wire to its relay post. Turn the switch to position one. The lamp should light. If not, examine the relay's upper point set for condition and dirt. You can also run a jumper wire from the signal lamp upper point to ground to verify current is present.

If the lamp did light, verify it remains lit for all switch positions. Back to switch position one, the only lamps that should be lit are the oil and generator lamps. With switch in position 1 and the lamp lit, manually open and close the relay's upper signal lamp points and verify that the generator lamp is going off and then back on.

If that is good, look at the relay's lower points. At no time should they be closed when the motor is not running or when the generator is putting out low voltage. If that is the case, clean the points.

Also, and this going to cause you some heartburn, if the relay points are stuck closed: yes, they will discharge the battery but not through the lamps. Under no circumstance should the lamps be lit with ignition switch off except through faulty wiring.

A stuck set of lower relay points discharges the battery through the generator. The lamp circuit and ignition circuits are removed from this ground path.

End of Part 2

[1stCAVREG]

Part 3

Sticking lower relay points are usually an annoying problem for a rider as they do not give an outward indication (tell-tale lamps being lit). Usually the rider finds out about when he gets up the next day to continue his journey and the battery is dead.

Let us know what you find out after making these tests and checking your wiring. Go over the ignition switch and all the terminals to make sure terminals that should not touch are indeed not touching. Its a tight space up there.

[pierino]

Hello Maurizio,

Contact Steve Slocomb at steve@vlheaven.com.

Hi!

thank you for the great suggestion!

When you first posted your issue, you said the light went off with motor off & switch in position 3. Now it appears you are saying the light is always off, regardless of switch position. The generator will not cause this.

good memory, 1stCAVREG, ... in fact my problem was different... in this time frame, I left my bike in the people-who-was-registering-her hands, and now I have to face this new issue (they had problems in understanding how to switch on lights... )

First test...

I did the first test before leaving for this trip (I'm away, right now...) and the lamp didn't work . also the testing on the switch was unsatisfactory, so I took out again the switch firstly: I dismantled it, cleaned and reassembled. then I CAREFULLY checked evey single contact for continuity and, at the end, switch was back to his position, ...ONLY the generating system is still isolated (hot yellow wire at relay, green wire at GEN).. ALL other lights are working perfectly... thus this is the end of my first part too... I will continue checks this weekend possibly... connecting the gen system...and then firing the engine...

and I will be back to you!

thank you!
maurizio

[pierino]

hi 1stCAVREG and all!


I'm back with news (well... facts)!

by the way... I'm here on this board, instead that privately, because I definetily think that sharing troubles could help another reader...


ok. made tests. but, first of all:

Go over the ignition switch and all the terminals to make sure terminals that should not touch are indeed not touching. Its a tight space up there.

yes, I did my job... as I'm sure that I'm suffering (my bike is suffering... ) more than a single trouble...

I dismantled the switch, cleaned it again, checked continuity...I checked every single wire, and proper working of every single lamp...and I found:

- switch was forced (probably with people that registered the bike and possibly when officials tested the lights) together with the instrument lamp knoble... I changed sw with a NOS keyed one (not 100% correct for a type V, but much safer thinking about people crawling around the bike...);

- when front blackout cover was changed for registering issues, the screw was driven against the negative of the lamp;

- contacts were anyway tightened and cheked for isolation.

First test the generator lamp will turn on and off at the relay end of the lamp wire with the relay removed

good. made it and it worked

Test the relay's ability to function the generator lamp

here I had some more trouble. with an electronic relay, it was a mess (probably, the relay has gone).

I then continued the test with my original one... and here too lamp didn't work... as circuit is basic, I x-checked the thin spring, and I just strengthened it. so, I managed it to work properly.
I cleaned also upper and lower points again.

test continued with all generator wires back to their position (the preceding tests were done with generator isolated as instructed)...

... AND HERE ARE STARTING THE PROBLEMS!

probably, I should say, the ORIGINAL problem, as now the gen light is working properly... IN ALL BUT IN THE HEADLIGHT POSITION!

there, the light goes out, as the lower points CLOSE!

so... at the end I'm back to the original troubles... and I'm starting to think that the "headlight" part of the gen is short circuited.

what do you think?


ciao
maurizio

[1stCAVREG]

Hello Maurizio,

Okay, you are back to your original issue “1) without starting engine, with SW in 3rd position (service lights), headlight correctly comes on, but generator signal light goes out.”

With the engine not running, the relay lower points should never close in any switch position and the generator light should always be on. So what is causing your relay lower points to close by simply turning the switch to its third position with the motor off?

The next thing to do is isolate the generator and the service lights from switch position three. To do this, remove all wires from the ignition switch terminal #2.

After you have removed the four wires from that terminal (generator shunt side, headlight, taillight, speedometer lamp) and after you verify that the relay lower points are open, turn the switch to position 3.

Did the relay lower points close and the generator lamp go out?

If yes, trouble is not with the generator.

If no, touch each of the four wires removed from terminal 2, one at a time, and observe which causes the relay lower points to close and the generator lamp to go out. Test each wire to be sure that there is only one fault.

Let me know what you find and we will go from there.