R.E.M.E. Jeep Headlights

[43 REME WILLYS]

15 years ago i restored a WW2 Jeep my dad had bought in the 60s. See " Looking for long lost REME Brothers " in the general discussion section. It came with these cool looking headlights, the guy my dad bought two from had bought five from U.S. truck and Equitment in Ohio who had bought and brought 100 of them from England. A couple of years ago i started searching for any of the surviving 98 brothers to my Jeep and found Jim Mulligans AWESOME Time Capsual ! There it was, an exact brother, with all the same mods. Thanks to Jim i learned alot about R.E.M.E and there remanufacturing of WW2 Jeeps ! I have since found other British Jeeps with some similar mods., but have never found any others with these cool headlights or all the same mods. My question is gentleman, does anybody know who made these headlights and where were they most commonly used ? and most importantly does anybody know were there may be more british jeeps like Jims and Mine ?

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[Jim M]

Good morning Keith,

I remember a thread about headlight buckets for sale on ebay (labeled GPW ) pointing out they were not correct. The buckets were similar to ours and I think it was Luca that indicated they are French made. A fellow viewed a photo of the tail lights on my REME Jeep and infromed me one of them is from a Kubelwagon/Opel Blitz! REME had German lighting components in stock and used them.
Regards,
Jim

[Marty, SoCal]

British headlamps most likely have a lens that is designed for driving on the "Wrong" side of the road! Does the light pattern of these lamps show mostly to the left or right side of the road at night?

[43 REME WILLYS]

Thanks Jim,
I will look for then on E Bay, just in case there still on. I thought your tail lights could of been from some 1920s european car from over there, its cooler were u found out were there from My jeep has a pair of early prototype jeep tail lights, i guess they used what was available. I sure wish we could find more brothers to are jeeps.

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[43 REME WILLYS]

Hi Marty,
You have a point, However right now my jeeps kinda buried, I will look when i have a chance.

[Rod Rushton]

Hello
I'm just restoring a GPW which was subject to a rebuild by the British Army in the '50's
I have seen several of what look like the ones you have
Can we have a profile shot of one please and I can probably tell you what it is.

Regards
RR

[Jim M]

Rod,

This is the best picture I have. I can make additional photos if needed.

Thank you,
Jim Mulligan

[Rod Rushton]

Hello Jim
Yes that looks like a fair example of a British Army post war re-build - like mine did before I started work on it!

The headlamps are un-questionably British made by Butler. They also made other kinds of vehicular lighting, sidelights, switches, etc
The bulbs were held in with adjustable circular clips - and by moving the bulb backwars or forwards they could be made to focus after a fashion.

You have to remember that before the war the lighting regulations were for a single red light to the rear, and for example London Buses only had one headlight for dip and two for main beam, and sealed beam light units as fitted to Jeeps and GMC's etc were in the future
There were different models produced with blackout masks and one even had the lower section able to flip up to allow more light through

Virtually all British vehicles were fitted with Butlers - check out Bart Vanderveens book on them and these continued in production for well after the war - the early Mark 1 land Rovers used them for example, with Butlers sidelights in the dash cowl.
My K2 Ambulance was fitted with them when I bought it - they were useless to drive at night with! Until in 1979 I discovered they were still being produced as work lights for tractors with a kind of "frosted" glass diffuser. I bought a set and converted them to clear lens and put pre-focus bulbs in them, which made them useable for night driving. The ambulance even had one o f the original Butlers with a metal face and the Red Cross cut out of it and a red plastic lens.


On another subject - did you find the REME Re-build brass plate attached to it anywhere?
On my Matchless it is in the toolbox and on the Ambulance it was in the tyre pump locker on the insides of the lid.good luck with your Jeep
Regards
RR

[Rod Rushton]

Hello Jim
I have just run a check through Google for "Butler Headlights" and several of the vintage tractor spares suppliers have them - also on e-Bay there are some at the moment.
They are also quite common on the Classic Car Meet Autojumbles, and several people supply bulbs, etc.
I have new replacement lens with quartz halogen H4 bulbs and side(marker) lights incorporated - these are for driving on the left - but I think they are available for dipping "on the other side"
Holden Automotive stock both 12v and 6v H4 bulbs.

Regards
RR

[43 REME WILLYS]

Hi Rod,
Thanks so much for all your info. it is greatly appreciated. One thing i dont understand is what "dip" headlight or dipping" headlight means ? does it mean passing ? Do you, or will you ever have contact with any of the other jeep guys with the butler headlights, and do you, or they have some of the other mods. like locking steering wheel and gas cap cover, relocated fire extinguisher, larger rear grab handles, different style side view mirror arm and no data plates on the glove box. I will include the pics of what i have to show you examples of, and maybe you can check out the rest through Jim. If you ever have contact with any of those guys could you please give them my contact info ? Also i had a rebuild tag on the engine that i will include a pic. of is that the tag you are looking for ? Oh and if you can could you please show pics. of your jeep ?
Thanks Keith
Autoservices@wi.rr.com

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[Rod Rushton]

Hello Keith
By dipping or dipped I mean high and low beams usually from the same headlight bulb - With Butlers it was pretty academic because they wouldn't produce enough light to dazzle, what ever beam you were on! It was a courtesy to oncoming road users.

I don't know anyone with a Jeep who retains the Butlers - they are so awful! We changed them for Seelites as soon as we could, and the Butlers got consigned to a dark corner of the workshop
Possibly one or two of the guys with airbourne jeeps might still have them.
Although they were standard on nearly all Medium British vehicles, owners today have probably put in conversion units as we often have to drive at night sometimes for long distances and time, and as they are all pretty slow anyway.Fortunately most of them have 12v systems as standard, although the old dynamos were only about 25amps, they are working at max. capacity.
If you Google up Austin K2 Ambulance, or Bedford MW or QL, or Daimler Dingo, you will see various types of Butlers, also on Google - Butlers Headlight there is one on the British - Cars net where someone has found a butler spotlight and anothe photo of it opened up.
There were several different lens available from the War up into the 1960's

The tractor lights I mentioned were adapted for 5" sealed beam units out of the Triumph 2000 and Stag vehicles. Nowadays even %" round lights are becoming harder to find as they are a thing of the past - progress, I suppose.

[Rod Rushton]

My Jeep too was ex REME and it also had the flap over the Gas filler cap, and the locking tab on the steering column, I have seen various types, usually a link of chain to pass the padlock through. They would as often as not remove the Data Plates and fit indicator switches on the dash panel when they went back into the workshops for "updates" and modifications to be carried out to the lighting etc. The sidelights, by Butler also, were fitted on top of the front fenders, a yellow bridge weight plate fastened off-centre to the front grill panel - also the rifle rack was removed and "U" section clips for the British Lee Enfield put onto the screen instead.

I Have several photos I have taken, but they are all to big for this site as I have only just learned to reduce the sizes this week!
Contact me on my e-mail rodney.rushton@virgin.net and I send you some.

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[shrek]

Hello Gents,

I bought a MB in England in 2010 and it has what I think are Butler lights mounted on the fenders for use as side lights. The jeep was first registered in the UK in 1983 but who else but the Brits would put those things on a jeep?

The engine does not have the original serial number, the one it does have is missing the MB prefix - and the tub is ford. She is a mix - match through and through with no rebuild tags. The data plates have ben replaced. I've had mixed reviews as to whether the frame tag is original.

Did any other european forces use Butlers post war? Was there an influx of MBs released to the U.K. around 1983?

These are all just shots in the dark but if anybody knows anything I would appreciate it,.

Thanks!

Shrek
1943 MB275638

[Rod Rushton]

The reason the Butler Sidelights were used was lighting regulations required lights to be a maximum distance in from the extremities and the Jeep marker lights were too far in, and were shielded.Regulations stated that the light should be of an area not less than 1 square inch
Butlers were used on a large number of British Vehicles - Bedfords, Austins, etc as well as pre-war civilian vehicles of all makes.
The masks varied and I have had several different types. Some reduce the hole in the centre to about 1"; others had raised rims - for what I have never discovered, except I have only seen them on Fire Engines (!),So: they were already in production, were easy to fit , and the Army had large stocks. I was still able to buy them sealed in boxes from the Vintage Suppliers quite recently. Production carried on after the war - the early(1948-51) Series 1 Land Rovers had them recessed into the panel below the screen, and had 5" Butler headlights in the grill; Tractors of this period had them too.
Also you have to remember that Britain was staggering under a huge debt from the War, and it was a period of austerity like never before, so we used what was available

I recall back in 1983 there were French Hotchkiss Jeeps(WOF) being released and a few years earlier the Greek Army was disposing of their stocks, and several bodies found their way into Britain via individuals and dealers/collectors, but there were no stocks left in the British army much after 1962.
I don't know of any one using Butler sidelights in Europe as there were lighting manufacturers in their home countries catering for their home markets - but it is possible, of course, that surplus supplies were used until they ran out.
I hope this casts some light on the matter
Regards
RR

[shrek]

Thanks Rod,
The body / jeep isn't Hotchkiss and has no rebuild tags from any military. The Butlers may have been put on by its owners to pass its MOT when it was registered in 1983. Guess I'll never know. The headlights are standard wartime examples.
Thanks again,
Chris