Jerrycan question

[lucakiki]

If you post pics that show ALL the details I have pointed out in my thread perhaps someone will respond.

Lutz,you perfectly know what the average enquirer would ask, and what the standard answer would be.

Q I have a can that looks as being german, but has nothing stamped on it. What is it?

A Hey, it looks like you have one of those so called Mystery Cans. Can you post a picture?

Consider this as an experiment, given I already posted more details than what the average enquirer would have posted.
You can see there are no tiny holes, and no hole on the tab.And you can see the shape of the stamping.
I can repost on here the same pictures I posted before, just to make the experiment more easy for any one who is willing to try.Forget that these cans are mine.

HERE THEY ARE







Second and third can from left : you can see the X


[/quote]

HERE, IF YOU LOOK CAREFULLY, YOU CAN SEE THE HOLLOW RIVET ON THE GREEN CAN.

[Chuck Lutz]

Kinda looks like this....????

J e 5 Marking.JPG (69.57 KiB) Viewed 558 times

[lucakiki]

Kinda, but neither of mine have any code on them.

[Chuck Lutz]

It would be a little easier if all the items listed in the identification thread could be seen on the examples you posted.....as you know, there are more than one kind of can without markings on them...In fact, a picture is not always the best representation method, a listing of the characteristics may be more helpful for our overall purposes.

One of the goals here is to classify them....for instance maybe ALL these cans with NO hole in the tab have the same characteristics and therefore might be from the same source. On the other hand, maybe there are OTHER distinguishing differences that would make it possible to classify more than ONE kind of "no-hole-in-the-tab" cans. This is why a comprehensive list was necessary...to encompass ALL the differences we can observe and then try to separate the cans accordingly.

[lucakiki]

It would be a little easier if all the items listed in the identification thread could be seen on the examples you posted.....as you know, there are more than one kind of can without markings on them...In fact, a picture is not always the best representation method, a listing of the characteristics may be more helpful for our overall purposes.

One of the goals here is to classify them....for instance maybe ALL these cans with NO hole in the tab have the same characteristics and therefore might be from the same source. On the other hand, maybe there are OTHER distinguishing differences that would make it possible to classify more than ONE kind of "no-hole-in-the-tab" cans. This is why a comprehensive list was necessary...to encompass ALL the differences we can observe and then try to separate the cans accordingly.

Oh, well,there is your thread for that list.
In this thread, I asked what people think of my two cans.
At the present moment, I do not know what they are,just as I did not know back in 2003. I do not think they are German, just as I did not in 2003.
So, rather than just ask, as the average enquirer has done until a very recent past, I also posted some pictures.
Maybe I will get the same answer that every enquirer got so far: they are the so called Mystery cans!
Or maybe someone will be able to tell me more than that, just by looking at the pictures.
Some clown might ask me whether they are water or gas cans, and I would ask him back if he knows what the difference would be.
If he asks, he must have a serious reason,unless he just pretended to.
Some reasonable guy might give me his unbiased opinion, based on what he can see in the pictures..
Some other reasonable guy might ask me to have a better look to a given feature that ,in his opinion, might be revealing.
Still another guy might ask me to send him the f... ed can, so he can look himself under all the angles he requires: If I was on his side of the pond, I might even oblige. Not sure it would help, though.

To make a long story short: is there anyone willing to give an answer, any answer

[lucakiki]

OK: I guess the lack of holes on the handle stamping, or the lack on the hole on the tab, or even the shape of the burp tube are not enough to discriminate between Mystery Cans, and further identify my cans.
So what might be a discriminating feature?
Who can exclude that they were made in U.S.A., and on which bases
Who can tell me they are made in Europe, and on which bases
In other words, what kind of progress has been made on the Mystery cans

[lucakiki]

Have a look at this can: the spout is exactly like the two cans I posted above. No hole on the tab.
The shape of the openings in the back of the handle is not rounded as in a british can, nor a german one.
Would that suggest any connection?

[tipdog]

So you're saying the mystery cans are FRENCH?

[lucakiki]

So you're saying the mystery cans are FRENCH?

Not at all! But I am pointing out how not all features are a safe clue to reveal the origin of a jerrycan.

[Chuck Lutz]

I completely agree that looking at one or two things is not suffecient to indicate the mfger 100%, however if you look at ENOUGH clues in the design characteristics...perhaps some indication of the original mfger would stand out. I have noted NINETEEN things to check out on a jerry can that might very well point to one mfger or another.

[lucakiki]

OK, let us play that game.

Here are the things to list in order to help us classify any can without markings with my answers in red
1) Steel or Galvanized PAINTED, OF COURSE
2) Clamshell or three-piece CLAMSHELL OF COURSE
3) Screw cap, round cap or European style cap.EURO STYLE OF COURSE
4) Threaded opening, round opening or European spout EUROPEAN SPOUT OF COURSE
5) Handle: Stick welded, spot welded or both to the can BOTH
6) Handle: No small holes in the front, two small holes in the front about 1/16" centered under each handle "U" or one larger hole to the left NO HOLES OF ANY KIND
7) Handle: where it is attached to the rear; are the openings rounded or squared SQUARED AS VISIBLE IN PICTURE
8 )Spout burp tube: is there a strap in the spout that secures the tube to the inside of the spout. Is the burp tube oval or round? OVAL AND ROUND SEE PICTURES OTHERWISE CANS ARE IDENTICAL


9) The indent on the can bottom, is it 9 3/4 x 4 1/8........ or is it 10 x 4 1/2 I HAVE NO CLUE10) The can-lock lift tab; is there a small 1/16" hole centered, a larger 3/16" offset to the right or a 3/16" centered that may be distorted by the bend in the tab, or is there no hole at all NONE AT ALL
11) The cam-lock lift tab is held on the cap by a bracket and there is a rivet that secures the cam-lock to it; is it a blind rivet (mushroomed on both ends) or does it have a round, flat domed head on one end, or does it have a pronounced round end on one end? If it has a blind rivet, is it to the RIGHT or the LEFT when looking at the spout straight on? SEE PICTURE
12)The cap is held on the spout with another rivet; is it a blind rivet or does it have a flat domed head on one end, or does it have a pronounced round end on one end? Again, which end (if any) has a blind rivet end or a mushroomed end? SEE PICTURE
13) Lift the cap OPEN and look at the edge around the gasket; is the edge relieved so as to fit down on the rear hinge assembly...or is the edge continous around the gasket SEE PICTURE
14) Spout; some have a visible seam up the front from where it is attached to the tank to where the cap gasket fits the lip, some appear to be extruded (no visible seam) SEE PICTURES
15) The bracket that holds the cam-lock to the cap; is there 7/8" of the cap visible to the front edge of the cap or is there 1/2" (German) or 5/8" (British) NO CLUE
16) What is marked on the can top or bottom or side? Is there any maker, date, letters or info? Is there an "ICC" marking on the can? OF COURSE NOT
17) When opened, does the CAP have TWO "notches" where the hinge assembly would fit? Is it RELIEVED in a small arc? Is it just straight across with no discernable feature?
18) What COLOR is the can painted? TAN What is the PRIMER color under the paint? NONE
19) Is the can LINED? NO Is the can liner RED colored? AS A CONSEQUENCE,NO

Some questions are not clear to me, but there are pictures that will allow you to give the answers yourself.

In case the few missing answers are the very ones which would allow a correct and safe identification of the cans and of their provenance,just let me know the two possible different solutions.

[Chuck Lutz]

OK...even this list is general enough to encompass American, British and German jerry cans that are marked as such so some comparisons can be made. As soon as I have enough responses to see a trend I will update what I think your two cans tell us so far....I believe you have the two from your shelf as the beginning of this thread asks about, that they are unmarked and have no other identifying marks or way to trace their source.

Here is what I think based on the observations of American and a few British cans and many German cans....even some postwar cans.
1- They are not WWII German unless they are 'last ditch' production as they have no liner or mfg marks. However in 1945 onwards British, French and Russian forces captured factories producing cans for the Germans and began production so they MIGHT have come from one of them. Same thing for the RED primer almost always found under the paint on German cans...maybe last ditch can production simply used whatever paint was available as this has been mentioned as having happened to German vehciles in 1945.

2- They do not appear to be WWII British production, but may still turn out to be from those middle east sources. Questions #11-15 and #17 give details that I can't see in the photos so I am not sure of that yet (you need GOOD CLEAR pics of each SIDE of the spout and handles, top pics of the open spout and closed spout and you need to measure some of the specs listed in #9)

3- The unmarked can's in Roy's pic (4 of em) have the small holes under the handle "U" as do mine so I don't think they are from the same source as those since the ones in your photos do NOT have those holes. Most....British cans do not have those holes under the "U" but Fisher & Ludlow photo example apparently does have them...just like the Swiss "TREIBSTOFF" cans do. Go figure...

While there are some details that are shared, that come and go and some that are unique....I think that the examples Roy posted and mine as well as others here in the USA are NOT like the ones in your photo and yours are of a source either WWII or post war from Europe. Perhaps the rest of the missing info will make some other observations possible. Until I have MORE photos of cans to note the details, I think it is easier to point out what these cans are NOT than to confirm who made them, where and when... just yet.

[lucakiki]

[Chuck Lutz]

So I take it you are not going to post the information you neglected to include in your inquiry?

[lucakiki]

i did not NEGLECT to include some information. I just did not have it available or, because of my faulty English, I did not fully understand what you were requiring. No answer better than a misleading answer.
In case the missing information happens to be the very one that would enable you to correctly and safely identify the cans, please point it out and I will try to fill the empty spaces.

OK...even this list is general enough to encompass American, British and German jerry cans that are marked as such so some comparisons can be made. As soon as I have enough responses to see a trend I will update what I think your two cans tell us so far....I believe you have the two from your shelf as the beginning of this thread asks about, that they are unmarked and have no other identifying marks or way to trace their source.

Here is what I think based on the observations of American and a few British cans and many German cans....even some postwar cans.

1- They are not WWII German unless they are 'last ditch' production as they have no liner or mfg marks. However in 1945 onwards British, French and Russian forces captured factories producing cans for the Germans and began production so they MIGHT have come from one of them. Same thing for the RED primer almost always found under the paint on German cans...maybe last ditch can production simply used whatever paint was available as this has been mentioned as having happened to German vehciles in 1945.

They have the big X, and no hole on the tab,so they cannot be last ditch German production.Hence the lack of liner is not due to last ditch production

2- They do not appear to be WWII British production, but may still turn out to be from those middle east sources. Questions #11-15 and #17 give details that I can't see in the photos so I am not sure of that yet (you need GOOD CLEAR pics of each SIDE of the spout and handles, top pics of the open spout and closed spout and you need to measure some of the specs listed in #9)

To be from middle east sources,( I have absolutely nothing against this possibility, just the opposite) we have to accept the idea that those mid eastern plants made jerrycans in the two clams big X style. Fine with me.
Do you know if those cans would have had or would not have had a hole in the tab?

3- The unmarked can's in Roy's pic (4 of em) have the small holes under the handle "U" as do mine so I don't think they are from the same source as those since the ones in your photos do NOT have those holes. Most....British cans do not have those holes under the "U" but Fisher & Ludlow photo example apparently does have them...just like the Swiss "TREIBSTOFF" cans do. Go figure...

Who cares about the swiss cans:mine are NOT marked. Mine have no holes, and the shape of the handles is NOT British either.They are different from Roy's cans, thank you very much for reminding me,but I had noticed that too..

While there are some details that are shared, that come and go and some that are unique....I think that the examples Roy posted and mine as well as others here in the USA are NOT like the ones in your photo and yours are of a source either WWII or post war from Europe. Perhaps the rest of the missing info will make some other observations possible. Until I have MORE photos of cans to note the details, I think it is easier to point out what these cans are NOT than to confirm who made them, where and when... just yet.

Let me see if my faulty english allowed me to fully grab the news.
My cans are different from Roy's and are most likely ( why?) from Europe.
They are non american Mystery cans.
Can you clarify what makes them non american,what makes them European, and why could they not be made in some mid eastern plant?

While waiting for the answer, given you have one, is it ok if all those guys who own cans different from the ones in Roy's picture call them with the old Mystery can label, or you have safe evidence that if not identical to the ones in Roy's picture they are by default non american mystery cans?

I will as soon as possible check out the details # 11-15 and #17 so you will finally be able to upgrade the identification.
EDITED
P.S. Rivets are hollow. You can see a portion, if you look carefully at the picture.