Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by DDTrustee » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:34 pm

Darryl....I stand corrected anyway....the tray you have for the ammo box can be a WWII one....in fact they can be post war as well since they didn't change for a number of years.....the one with the holes in the bottom is specific to some WWII mounts including the M18 MG mount. I have the cradle excess to my needs that has the two different diameter pin out the bottom .... Rod says correct for scout cars etc. but not for the M49 ring trolley. Since Ser. No. 6988 M8 came with a ring there is no option for the fold over M2HB mount.....hence Im looking fir the D40733
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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by vj » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:48 pm

I got a m49c gun ring to trade or sell. vj
I have got four running halftracks,plus 5 ton ww2 semi-truck,1943 willys jeep and other ww2 vehicles,plus a lot of parts to trade on. Wendell in Tn.

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:07 am

Hi all,

I’ve been a bit distracted with other projects over the last few weeks but there has been some more progress on the M8.

I’ve been working on the wiring from the instrument panel and this is just about done now. The NOS loom I got was in good condition but I think made for a later panel, and I had to ‘make’ it fit. My instrument panel is an earlier one, but it doesn’t have the starter button below the ignition switch. It does have the switch hole on the other side, which presumably was the Fire Detector Test button.

Where should the starter button be? The manuals are a little unclear on this and the various photos I’ve seen haven’t helped. At this stage I am using the starter button in the Fire Detector Test button position and wiring it in there.

I have two oil pressure gauges. One is a Stewart Warner make. The one which is fitted is marked as 7412564, and ‘AC”. Is there an easy way to check what gauge will work with the sensor I have? Does anyone have any experience with this? I might as well fit the correct oil pressure gauge from the start if I can.

The brake slave cylinders with new stainless sleeves and new rubber boots are all assembled and ready to fit. I have some spare boots if anyone needs any.

I managed to source some canvas dome fittings for the turret from a company in the US. These have a 10-32 stud fitted into them so were ideal. I just had to drill out the old brass screws and run a tap into the holes and these are all in place now. The only thing left on the turret now is just some tweaking of the mounts for the gun ring. We straightened these before the ring arrived, but now that the ring is here, it looks like they should have been a little twisted anyway to make the gun ring mounting holes line up.

I am getting toward the end of the welding on the hull now. I was very fortunate to be able to get my hands on the front engine cross member I was after. Many thanks to John and Dave for that. The front cross member and rear engine cross member that we fabricated are now welded/fitted in place.

I now see that the reproduction rear engine mounts that I got are not quite right so I will need to modify them before they will work.

I fabricated some new exhaust pipe brackets and fitted these along with the shovel bracket.

One of the headlight guards is now welded in place. The other one will be here soon, as will the First Aid Kit bracket (thanks To Willy and Christophe), so I’ll fit these as soon as they arrive.

That should just about do on the hull before I get it sandblasted and painted.

I haven’t managed to source the rear plate that the engine covers hinge on, so it looks like I will need to fabricate this and the hinge mounts.
Can anyone confirm the dimensions of this plate and assist with any photos please? I have some photos of the top side of this piece but I don't have any photos from the underside showing how this is constructed.
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Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Peterdodge6volt » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:24 am

Hi Darryl
It's Peter who I bought the gauge panel from you a while ago.

At your gauge panel I have say you have 3 out 6 Guages correct.
The amp gauge is the correct one for M8 wartime.
Speedo is correct for M8 wartime.
Temp gauge is correct wartime but it is French use only.

Not correct is
The oil gauge is not correct as its post war.
The volt gauge is postwar.
The fuel gauge is postwar.

M8 and M20 should be brass bezel gauges
I have a NOS temp gauge and NOS fuel gauge correct one for M8, if you happy let me know I will sent you pictures on PM

Peter

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by dgrev » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:02 pm

Darryl - you do realise that all the gauges with the pale yellow/dirty yellow paint on the markings are radioactive? The paint is radium based.

I substituted modern gauges as I was not keen on my fingers and hands being only 2" from them.

Pointing a geiger counter at WW2 US and British gauges is educational!

In say a jeep, you are far enough back from the instruments that exposure is almost undetectable.

I also note that No19 radio sets in the majority also have radium paint on the markings, the worry being it is not sealed inside
behind glass, thus if it powders or flakes can be breathed in.

Regards
Doug

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:04 pm

Hi Peter

Thanks for the reply. Some interesting information and I wasn't aware of all that. I will send you a PM.


Hi Doug,

Yes, I recall our discussion about that. It was a bit of an eye-opener. I'm not sure I will bother changing these gauges. At the rate I'm going I'll only be getting the M8 out once a year!
Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by DDTrustee » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:48 pm

hate to provide scientific information here: radium (on the dials) is an alpha particle emitter....stopped by a sheet of paper let alone a glass bezel....
an alpha survey meter would not read anything in front of the gauges!

they are not harmful to have in the vehicle :mrgreen:

JUST DON'T OPEN THEM UP!!!!!!! :o
reenacting and WWII history

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by dgrev » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:55 pm

Dan

I disagree. I have a geiger counter calibrated on Cesium 137 ( IIRC ).

It goes to mid scale on medium setting (low/med/high options) at 1" from face of gauge ie. through the glass. The noise is almost a constant hash sound not the beep.........beep........beep you would get from say background radiation. Slightly less when reading from behind the gauge ie. through the thin metal.

For that reason, I highly doubt it is just alpha.

Oh and by the way, when I put 1" of solid lead between the geiger and the gauge the difference in the reading is noticeable on the dial, but not audibly.

Which suggests high end Beta at the least or something nastier.

Regards
Doug

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:08 am

Hi all,

Here are a few more photos.

As I mentioned, the repro rear engine mounts that I got are not quite right. The hole spacing on the rear of the mount for the three bolts that attach it to the rear plate on the hull is not correct. The centre hole is pretty close, but a bit high. The side holes are also out.

The holes for bolting the engine mount to the cross member don’t match the sheet metal tray underneath as you can see in the picture. As a result, I am struggling to see exactly where these engine mounts should lie on the cross member I have just fitted. I can see that the rear left mount should be positioned a bit closer to the hull than the one on the other side but I’m not sure exactly where.

I need to position these mounts accurately so can someone please give me the measurements from the side of the hull to the centre of the engine mount hole, and the rear of the hull to the same centre of the engine mount hole. I presume the middle bolt hole on the end of the mount that attaches to the back of the hull, is in line with the centre of the engine mount hole itself. If I can get those measurements right, then I will make up a new plate for the end of these mounts to attach it to the rear of the hull, cut off the old end and weld on the new plate (if that makes sense!). Then I can drill holes in the cross member to bolt the mounts to it.

I also have some questions about the 37mm ready rack and the shelf above it. How is the ready rack secured to the hull? There are what appears to be mounting holes in the top corners of the rack at the front, but I don’t see anything obvious in the sponson to secure it. I realise of course, that this hull may not have had the ready rack, and instead had some other arrangement. I'm guessing there must have been a tab on each side of the sponson that the ready rack would have been bolted to?

The next question is around the door that covers the ready rack. I have a door to attach to the hull to cover the front of the ready rack. However, all the photos I’ve seen have the latch on the door coming up under the front lip of the radio shelf. To do that with mine, the radio shelf would need to be brought well forward in the sponson to do this. Is this normal? This would leave a large gap at the rear of the shelf between the shelf edge and the sponson wall. This is an original radio shelf I have in the sponson and as you can see if sits well behind the front edge of the ready rack. Do these shelves come in different sizes?

Any hints would be appreciated.

Thanks.
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Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by DDTrustee » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:58 am

I stand corrected on the Radium dial issue...there is a small amount of gamma radiation emitted.....from NRC safety literature:

Safety
Although old radium dials may no longer produce light, this is frequently due to the breakdown of the crystal structure of zinc sulfide rather than the radioactive decay of the radium, which has a half-life of about 1600 years,[2] so even very old radium dials remain radioactive. Radium paint can be ingested by inhaling flaking paint particles. The alpha particles emitted by the radium, which is taken up in bone, will kill off surrounding bone tissue, resulting in a condition loosely referred to as radium jaw. Inhaled or ingested particles may deposit a high local dose with a risk of lung or gastrointestinal cancer due to the radiation dose. The risks are hard to quantify due to the variable levels of radium in the paint and the quantity ingested or inhaled. Care should be taken in handling these materials especially where the paint is damaged.
The most common isotope of Radium is 226Ra, which primarily emits ionizing radiation: [alpha particles].[2] Alpha particles are shielded by most thin materials including paper. However, 226Ra only emits alpha particles 97 percent of the time with 186 keV gamma emission 3% of the time. Also, 226Ra is rarely present without other transuranic elements or decay products, which may emit beta or gamma radiation. Therefore, the radiation hazards from radium paint may not be entirely removed by the varnish, case or container. Care should be taken to prevent the inhalation or ingestion of flakes or dust which may contain radioactive materials. Radium dials have been shown to have dose rates near the face of in excess of 10uSv / hr, which would deliver a dose equivalent to one days background exposure in around 20 mins. This dose rate probably only represents the gamma emission as the alpha emission will be stopped by the lacquer or case. Hence the dose rate following ingestion or inhalation of the dust could be much higher.

FURTHER:
Adrian van der Meijden, Roland Claessens and Hans Goerter did a study of an old WWW wrist watch with a radium 226 dial, and reported the following results:
With the dial towards the detector we found:
• Distance 0 cm: 2.3 microsievert/hr.
• Distance 10 cm: 0.38 microsievert/hr.
• Distance 50 cm: 0.26 microsievert/hr.

With the case back towards the detector:
• Distance 0 cm: 0.85 microsievert/hr.
• Distance 10 cm: 0.019 microsievert/hr.
• Distance 50 cm: 0.015 microsievert/hr.
(one millisievert equals 100milliRem)

Conclusions:
Exposing a person to 100 millisievert (20-30 times the back ground radiation) increases the cancer risk by 0,4%. Starting or quitting smoking influences the cancer risk on a much more dramatic scale.
In Europe, it is estimated that the background radiation should not exceed 2000 microsievert/year or 2 millisievert/year. This is equal to 200milliRem/year. In the U.S. the standard is with 3,0-3,5 millisievert/year somewhat higher but differences per State exist, depending from the altitude where people live.
It should be emphasised that radioactive elements such as radium-226 and tritium are natural components on our planet.
My take on this report:
If you wore the watch tested 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, you would receive 7.5 millisievert/year, more than the recommended dose, but in order to raise your cancer risk by 1% you would have to wear the watch 24/7 for 33 years (100 millisievert increases the cancer risk by 0,4%). If you took it off at night and kept it more than two feet away, the number of years required for a 1% increase risk of cancer jumps to 50.
'Wear it, don't eat it.'

The takeaway from this is that if you test the gauge right next to the glass you WILL get a high reading. 20 inches away you will get a reading about 10 percent of that at the gauge face. Reviewing the literature cited above, the risk from the radium-painted gauge is exceedingly low UNLESS you take it apart and mess with the dial face……so DON’T.

I will have a friend at Sandia National Laboratory take readings at the driver’s seat for a WWII Dodge with radium painted gauges and report back what the levels are in a few weeks. I have already been told that living at 5000 feet is a greater risk except if I sit in that Dodge seat for 24 hours a day for 365 days in a row.
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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by dgrev » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:01 pm

Dan

Excellent, many thanks. It is so nice to finally read something "official". I do note that the article references a watch. As a comparison I would say the watch is roughly equivalent to a normal vehicle gauge whilst a speedo probably represents 2x or 3x the quantity of radium paint.

I would caution that the quantity/intensity of radium paint used on a watch may be very different to that used in a military instrument.

I note the same warning as I gave about loose/flaky/exposed paint with reference to WW2 radios such as the No19 set and its cousins.

I remember reading that a single WW2 instrument was detected in a load of scrap metal in one of the bigger US cities. If the emissions are so low at the source and drop off so quickly with distance, how do they penetrate through a truck load of scrap and be detected by a road side mounted scanner?

> I will have a friend at Sandia National Laboratory take readings at the driver’s seat for a WWII Dodge with radium painted gauges and report back

I expect the readings will be low. But you are missing the point. With a Greyhound, the hands are at 2" from the instruments, not 2 or 3 feet as
with the Dodge. If he is willing, please ask him to do the readings at 2" as well?

My geiger is calibrated in milli or micro REM or RADs. Been a while since I used it, so I need to have a look. Converting from one radiation measurement system to another has its pitfalls I believe, so perhaps your friend can provide details too on how to do that and I can report my measurements?

Regards
Doug

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:57 am

Hi all,

More on what I’ve done on the M8 over the last few days.

I’ve done some more work on the sponson shelf and the 37mm ready rack. I’ll post pictures of these once I’m done. I’ve also modified the engine mounts but will leave finalising them until I’m in a position to put the engine block in and make sure everything lines up.

As I mentioned in my last post, I’m working on getting the engine cover mounting plate fabricated. Does anyone have a picture of the underside of this? I can see there are folded sections on each side on the underside which form part of the mounting for it. I figure the folded pieces are just 90 degree pieces stitch welded to the edge of the engine cover hinge mounting plate, much the same as the fuel tank cover setup (as shown in the photo) I’d like to confirm this if I can though with a photograph of the underside of this.

I’ve drawn up a rough sketch based on what dimensions I’ve worked out so far.

The engine covers are one of my next jobs while I am sorting out the engine cover mounting plate. These both have some bullet damage. I may just clean the holes up a little and leave them as is. I will need to get some new hinges rolled up for one cover, and the other piece of the hinges for the mounting plate. What do the locking tabs on the locking arms look like? Does anyone have a photo of this please?

I have acquired the other front shock absorber mount (thanks Willy). I’ve also got a repro jerry can holder for the driver’s seat (thanks Sylvain) which I am putting together.

The fuel tank supports are straightened and ready to fit. The throttle slave cylinder has been refurbished and is ready to paint. I sourced what I think is a French made Dodge WC brake master cylinder which will become the clutch master cylinder. I’ve had a stainless steel sleeve put into this as well and that is also ready to paint.
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Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:53 pm

Hi all,

I managed to get one of the guys in the workshop to give me a hand over the last couple of days and we got a fair bit done on the M8.

I wasn’t able to source another headlight guard so we fabricated one based on the one I had. I drew up some profiles, and got it cut out of 6mm plate. We then folded it to the correct radius and with a bit of panel-beating to get the shape correct we fitted it on the hull. I think it looks pretty good.

I used all the photos I could find of the engine cover mounting plate and managed to muddle my way through to a plan for fabricating a new one. What wasn’t clear to me was whether the underside of this mounting plate was a single piece of channel, or whether it was two pieces of 90 degree folded steel like the pieces under the fuel tank cover.

In the end I plumped for a similar construction to what was on the underside of the fuel tank cover and we put something together. We used a length of 5mm thickness box section and cut it so that there were two 90 degree pieces of the right width. These formed the reinforcing sides of the engine cover hinge mounting plate. We welded tabs on each end for the bolt mounting holes.

Rolling up new hinges like the originals would have involved a bit of work so I elected to get a bit of steel bar and run holes through the centre with a lathe, and then weld these onto flat bar to make up the two piece hinges.

The finished product is not perfect but I'm very happy with it. Both engine covers appear to have a little twist on one of their corners, and so sit a little high in those corners. I guess they’ve been in a war, so it shouldn’t be too surprising. I figure they should straighten themselves out a bit once everything is in place and the locking handles are fitted. I will make up some proper pins for the hinges when I get some spare time.

Thanks to Sylvain, I got the measurements of the locking handles and the lifting handles for the engine covers so I'm getting these folded as well.

I moved the mounts for the radio tray shelf above the ammo rack so that this shelf sits flush with the door over the 37mm ready rack. There seems to be a couple of variants in the sizing of this shelf. A wider shelf would look better but if I put another FT-237 radio tray onto it, it won’t be a problem.

I also fabricated some mounts for the 37mm ammo rack to fix this in place and cleaned out the broken bolts that secured the First Aid kit bracket and tapped some new holes for the bracket to be fitted. A bit of paint on that and the protecto-scope box I picked up and they will be ready to fit.

I realised I hadn’t done a final fit of the tool lockers after the welding repairs so I tried them out and did a bit of adjusting. They are pretty good and a bit of dressing up of the welds and joints and they will be fine. The two repro locker lids I got and the two originals I had still need a bit of tweaking with the hinges, so I will be finalising them over the next few days.

I decided to get the rear engine mounts sorted now before I got the hull blasted and painted, so am in the process of sorting that. I will lower the block into the engine bay and bolt it to the front cross-member so I can confirm the length of the rear engine mounts. The lengths of these two repro mounts aren’t quite right, and the mounting holes at the end for bolting to the rear of the hull have the wrong hole pattern. I have made new plates to bolt to the end of the hull and I will cut the existing ones off these mounts, tack everything in place with the block in-situ and then weld them up out of the hull once I’m happy with the placement.

I am ordering the OD paint next week and now looking ahead to a date when I can get the hull and turret blasted and painted. The blasters have quite a workload so it could be a few weeks before the M8 can be done. I’ll get some progress photos of the progress, as I want to see the hull markings as they come up under the blasting.
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Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by seacon » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:03 am

Nice!
Brent Mullins had NOS engine bay door handles...
ciao

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:25 am

Hi Seacon

Thanks for that. I will give him a try.

Ciao.
Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car


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