Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by John Neuenburg » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:46 am

Great project Darryl! I have not read every post to see if you are planning this, but if you have the original clutch hydraulic line design with a 90 degree turn under the right side of the gas tank armor cover, with a bleed valve on that fitting, you can't service it without lifting the gas tank armor. This is easily fixed.

This is my M20, right side of the gas tank (in foreground) looking down with the transverse armor gas tank cover removed. The clutch line is to the left with a bleeder screw on the 90 degree fitting. Note the size of line compared with the brake and throttle lines.
Image

Cover removal would not be too difficult except it wouldn't come up because the piece the heavy engine doors are hinged to was sitting on it. I had to lift that first by removing its front bolts and loosening the rear bolts, put both doors touching, attached a winch hook to the handles, and lifted the front of the assembly a couple inches so the gas tank armor would come off as shown here. What a hassle!
Image

Ford should have run a small extension line from the fitting rearwards into the engine compartment with a bleed fitting there so it's easy to service.
Image

Here it is before reinstalling the transverse cover. I just left the line sitting there on the conduit
Image

I don't recommend doing without that bleed point if you use a large clutch line like mine, which I assume is correct. I don't know why they needed such a big line, but an air bubble can sit at that corner and not be forced down to the slave cylinder when bleeding. I bled the heck out of mine to no avail, even put 20 pounds of fluid pressure into it, and apparently the fluid was running right by the bubble. That's when I investigated and learned of that "secret" bleed point. Bleeding removed the bubble.

Regarding radium exposure, hopefully you are getting involved with armored cars relatively late in life like I did (50s) so you don't have many years to expose yourself!

Hope this helps.
Last edited by John Neuenburg on Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:00 pm

Hi John

Thanks for the reply. I have no lines at all, for either brake or clutch so will be starting completely from scratch. I hope to copy what I've seen in photos as much as I can and your idea about the bleed point in the engine bay makes total sense. A couple of guys have mentioned setting up some bleed points for the brakes which I thought was a great idea, but I hadn't considered the clutch at all at this stage.

I haven't looked at the manuals too hard yet for exactly how the clutch line is routed. Is there scope to bring that 90 degree connection further back and actually into the engine bay area? I might as well make life as easy as possible if I'm starting with a clean slate.

Yes, a late starter into armoured cars. For me, I don't think I will be in the M8 enough to worry about it. My other vehicles hardly see the light of day and I don't think this will be much different!
Darryl Lennane
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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:01 am

Hi all,

I have now sorted the repro rear engine mounts. My engine crane didn’t have the height to get the engine block over the side of the hull, so I used a forklift to lower the block into the engine bay. After that I was able to use the engine crane to jiggle the block into place. I raised the engine into the front mounts, clamped the rear mounts down on the cross member, and once I was happy with the placement, drilled the mounting holes in the new cross member.

The repro mounts were about the correct length but the bolt spacing on the back where the mounts attach to the hull was well off. I chopped off the ends of the mounts and welded on the new bolt mounting plates I made. The hole spacing on the sheet metal plate that goes under the engine mounts was also out, so I have drilled new holes through that. Not sure why the repro mounts weren’t right but I guess there were differences in the hulls over time which could account for that.

I finished off the engine cover mounting plate by cutting and shaping it at the rear end to clear the radiator, and adding a few footman loops.

The hull and turret are booked in for the blasting and painting on 13th and 14th November so I am looking forward to that. In the meantime, I’ve started work on a few other things to keep me amused.

I am in the process of removing the recoil system from the mantlet. There are a couple of screws holding this in place so I will soak them with penetrant for a while before I try cracking them.

The generator will need a little bit of work…. It does rotate, so that is something. Hopefully the internals are in reasonable shape.

I’ve finalised the jerry can bracket on the driver’s seat and also completed all the tool lockers and lids.

I have started removing the end covers off the fuel tank. The wee screws and nuts are pretty stuck so each one is a battle, and there are a heap of them! I am still a bit undecided on what to do with the fuel tank. I have seen NOS bladders come up for sale but they are expensive (about 800 EURO from what I've seen). The vehicle will not get a lot of use and I am reluctant to spend that sort of money if I can’t maintain the bladder, so at this stage I am inclined to make (or find) a fuel tank that will go inside the original enclosure.

What are other’s opinions on this?
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Darryl Lennane
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1943 White M3A1 AOP
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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by 1944M8 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:29 pm

Darryl,
It's been about 16 years since I restored my M8 but I too considered the option of using an NOS inner bladder. I had read that there could possibly be problems in the future due to the fuel reacting with the 40 year old NOS rubber bladder and turning it to jelly. The thought of having a 40 gal tank leaking was just not an option I was ever willing to risk.

I chose to actually make the fuel tank out of the metal shroud itself..

As you know getting those 100+ nuts and screws out was a task. after doing so I pulled the original rubber bladder out and set it aside (there will be fiber board shims inside between the bladder and shroud) I was careful not to damage the rubber in the areas where the bladder was screwed through the metal shroud.

I blasted the inner and outer shroud surfaces, replaced sheet metal where needed and also welded two flat vertical baffles inside. I also made a new pick up tube & fitting for the bottom. I fit and welded the ends on the shroud on and re-drilled screw holes for the phillister head screws. Because of the welded ends the screws were pure cosmetic. I then sent the tank out to a tank repair company and they coated the insides and baked it. (no leaks ever)

The rubber bladder...
On the bladder there are two large ports, one for the fuel fill with phillister head screws and on the other end an access port (also with screws) There is also a top port for the sending unit (with screws) and also one on the bottom for the pickup tube and drain pipe (with more screws).
At all of these port areas there is a metal ring cast into the rubber bladder with screw hoIes to secure and seal the bladder to the shroud at these locations. I cut those port sections out of the bladder at these areas, cleaned them, retapped the screw holes and using fuel tank adhesive & seal I then reinstalled them at the proper locations from inside the new coated tank using the sealant. With new phillister head screws installed it looked like an NOS bladder at those locations. For getting the large port rubber ring sections inside the tank I had a sealed plate opening on the shroud backside that could not be seen once the fuel tank armor was installed. After painting the "new shroud tank" looked NOS.. it also worked flawlessly.

There was quite a bit of work involved with this but it really worked out well.. I suppose a smaller capacity tank could have been made to fit inside the shroud but I wanted an end product with the original capacity for cruising as well as looking original.
If I can dig up photo's I'll shoot them to you or post on here

1944m8
North Carolina USA
Last edited by 1944M8 on Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by John Neuenburg » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:02 pm

Wow 1944M8 that is quite a project! Thanks for sharing. I suppose welding up a rectangular can is easier but it's nice to have something that looks closer to original.

For those nervous about using an original bullet-sealing tank, I have used one with California gas for many years with no ill effects. Low octane gas from at least six gas stations. No fuel filter plugging. I procured a spare tank years ago "just in case." Doesn't seem necessary but I'll keep it around for a while.

I use the inner tank by itself with no external sheet metal. It's quite stiff and just sits there and does what it's supposed to.
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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:31 pm

Hi 1944M8,

Thanks for the reply. That sounds like a heck of an idea. Like you say, I imagine there would be quite a bit of work involved, but on the other hand, the material is basically all there and it is just a matter of sealing it and preparing it. The big plus is that it looks right!

On the face of it, the condition of the metal on this enclosure/shroud seems quite good, but I'll confirm this week once I have one of the ends off.

You mention that you welded two vertical baffles inside the shroud. Can I ask what the purpose of this was?

For me, the capacity of the tank is not that important. I won't be able to legally register the M8 for road use here (too many hurdles with left hand drive etc), so the use of it will be at displays or parades etc. The actual miles driven each time will probably be able to be counted on one hand. I had been leaning toward getting a stainless steel tank made that would fit into the shroud, but your suggestion may well be a viable option for me.

Many thanks!
Darryl Lennane
NZ

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:35 pm

Hi John,

In amongst my research, I actually dug up one of your posts from a number of years ago where you said you had a spare NOS tank.

You guys are lucky with the road use you can put these vehicles to and I gather that is the key to keeping these bladders intact; plenty of use and keeping sufficient gas in there all the time.
Darryl Lennane
NZ

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1943 White M3A1 AOP
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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by 1944M8 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:41 am

Darryl,
As far as welding in those baffles.. when I cut my original bladder apart for those port sections I noticed the bladder also had two stiff flat baffles inside.. I just copied the location on the new shroud. Maybe the original intent was to help prevent fuel from sloshing side to side if the level was low and possibly causing the pickup tube to run dry at a critical moment ?

spare NOS tanks...

When I was restoring my M8 I also had two NOS rubber bladders.. one was the original type that fit inside the shroud.. it was dated 1945.. The other was the self sealing type that had the groves cast into the rubber for the fuel tank hold down straps. That type was never meant to go inside a shroud. I believe it was dated 1953. I think the French also made a replacement rubber tank like that.

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by DDTrustee » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:39 am

If you want a secure and modern tank......aircraft fuel tank manufacturers can put one together for around same cost as an original bladder and it is impervious to all fuels.....mine is. $400.
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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:55 am

Hi 1944M8,

Thanks for that. That would explain it. That's interesting about the different fuel tanks. I thought all were made to go into the shroud.

Hi DaninNM,

Thanks for the reply. That's another good option. I can see I am going to have to price up a few options and work out which way I need to go.

Thanks all for the ideas and advice.
Darryl Lennane
NZ

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by John Neuenburg » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:05 pm

I also thought all the tanks went into the shroud but with those molded-in grooves for the hold down straps on both of mine, that wouldn't make sense. Are the standalone tanks heavier? The stencils on my spare say 61 pounds and I believe it! Dated 1943.

I'll post some photos of my spare if and when Photobucket starts cooperating. The free version doesn't work well for me.
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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by nirvana » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:41 am

dgrev wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:55 pm
Dan

I disagree. I have a geiger counter calibrated on Cesium 137 ( IIRC ).

It goes to mid scale on medium setting (low/med/high options) at 1" from face of gauge ie. through the glass. The noise is almost a constant hash sound not the beep.........beep........beep you would get from say background radiation. Slightly less when reading from behind the gauge ie. through the thin metal.

For that reason, I highly doubt it is just alpha.

Oh and by the way, when I put 1" of solid lead between the geiger and the gauge the difference in the reading is noticeable on the dial, but not audibly.

Which suggests high end Beta at the least or something nastier.

Regards
Doug
My experience:

This isn't a second or third hand story, this happened to a friend of mine, and I saw it. He had a complete tank dash shipped to him from Canada, with all of the gauges. It was stopped at the border by customs for emitting radiation. At that point, it was returned to the seller, who pulled out the night gauges and then mailed it to my friend again. Once the radium paint gauges were gone, it cleared customs and my friend got it here in the states. The results were sort of sad. I saw the dash still in the box, with big holes where the gauges were and an otherwise 100% complete item gutted.

So yea, this happened. Is it normal? I doubt it. But customs caught the dash and kicked it back. This happened back in 2005 or so, give or take.

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Peterdodge6volt » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:24 pm

Same thing happen to me a few weeks ago when I want to buy volt gauges from Europe and he cannot sent them as due to radiation on the gauges. :cry: and still I can't find any volt gauges in Australia and still haven't got one for my project. I ask the seller if he can sent them to CZ where my cousin live and postage still don't accept.

Darrly I almost have the right amp gauge for your M8 but wrong one it reads 150/150. I will keep searching in the shed for the right one for you.

Peter

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by dgrev » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:01 pm

Gauges = The US for sure scans mail for radiation, but they also have fixed scanners around cities that can detect as little as a smoke detector in a full semi-trailer. So nothing gets past them.

Bladder = Darryl be a bit careful of the US advice. Their petrol supply is contaminated with Greenie Do-gooder Ethanol which was mandated purely to make the corn lobby rich. As a fuel it sucks, to use a US euphemism. It degrades, it attracts moisture and it has a poor octane rating. So it does more than just kill rubber, it also causes fuel system corrosion, sedimentation and so on.

Ethanol will kill your fuel bladder pure and simple and any other real rubber components in your fuel system.

In a wet country like NZ, I would be avoiding it like the plague in anything that has an engine, even modern stuff.

My Greyhound is as original with correct bladder. I always make sure there is some petrol in it so that it keeps moist and that there are plenty of fumes in there. The bladder is decades old and still in excellent condition. Other than Ethanol, it is ozone, light and drying outthat kills rubber. With the bladder in the container neither can get to it and if you keep it wet with petrol all is happy.

Thus, your only risk is ethanol. Rick (who you know) had a talk to the engineer at one of the big fuel companies over here who said that by and large, normal petrol is fine and does not have Ethanol unless labelled as such due to fuel companies not wanting to get sued for someone's fuel system turning to mush. She could not assure him of 100% purity due to tankers being used for normal petrol one load, then 10% Ethanol blend the next load. But realistically, the amount of Ethanol would be down in the 1/100th of a percent, too little to do any harm. Depending on the brand, there may be undeclared Ethanol in the standard petrol and that can be in the % range not fractions of a percent. However, she did say that premium petrol never has ethanol because they struggle as it is to get the stated octane rating due to Ethanol being so low. So to use premium if wanting to be certain.
Both of us are running genuine bladders and neither of us have had a problem with them. Both of our vehicles see very few miles. We stick to big name brand petrol.

QED!

Regards
Doug

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by dgrev » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:04 pm

You have no idea how lucky your friend was to get that dash. Normally the authorities just seize anything detected and destroy it with no
compensation.

Regards
Doug

My experience:

This isn't a second or third hand story, this happened to a friend of mine, and I saw it. He had a complete tank dash shipped to him from Canada, with all of the gauges. It was stopped at the border by customs for emitting radiation. At that point, it was returned to the seller, who pulled out the night gauges and then mailed it to my friend again. Once the radium paint gauges were gone, it cleared customs and my friend got it here in the states. The results were sort of sad. I saw the dash still in the box, with big holes where the gauges were and an otherwise 100% complete item gutted.

So yea, this happened. Is it normal? I doubt it. But customs caught the dash and kicked it back. This happened back in 2005 or so, give or take.


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