Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number

Post by Big D » Tue May 30, 2017 11:29 pm

Hi all,

Things have been a bit quiet with the restoration lately due to commitments with other projects, but I haven’t been completely idle and it is still progressing.

The work on the hull is continuing. I have a few parts arriving next month so will have bit of welding to do along with a few other things I am doing. I have the second headlight guard and the first aid kit bracket to be welded on, as well as some new exhaust mount brackets.

The rear engine support hull cross member had been removed at some point so I had a new piece of steel folded up into a channel type profile, which we will weld into place.

Unless I am lucky and find a front engine mount cross member (shown in the pictures) somewhere, I will need to get another piece of steel folded into a channel type profile, which I will cut and shape to form the cross member for the front engine supports.

I was a bit lucky with the oil can brackets for the engine bay. I acquired a good one (thanks Bill) and had another one (thanks Mathijs) for which I have fabricated the clip.

The tool lockers are nearly done. I had two in reasonable condition along with three that were really only good as donors. The reasonable ones looked like the moths had got to them though with lots of small holes in them, so I had to splice good bits of material from the other beaten up ones into these two. I found though that the pressed pattern in the donor tool lockers had a different spacing to the other ones, presumably from a manufacturing change, so I didn’t have as much good donor material as I thought. They don’t look too bad now though and they shouldn’t need much if any fibreglass.

I resurrected from the dead the two tool locker lids I had. One looked like it had been run over by a Sherman tank and the other was heavily corroded in places. Even after lots of straightening, the mangled one is pretty marginal really, but I’ll see how it looks with a blast and paint. I have sourced two nice looking repro lids from Belgium and they are on the way here, so that will complete the set.

While these wee jobs are going on in the background, I have started work on the turret. The turret was obviously a range target at some point and has a number of bullet holes in it which need to be filled.

The skirt around the base of the turret is also damaged in places but I have some replacement pieces which I have already cleaned up which I will cut to the right size and weld on.

I will also need to fabricate the steel rack around the exterior of the turret. Can anyone confirm the width of this steel strap? From what is left on the turret, it looks like 1 1/4" strap of about 1/4' thickness.

I also need to know how far it sits proud of the turret surface if someone can confirm please. It appears from photos that it is about 1 1/2” out from the turret, but if someone can confirm, I'll get this fabricated as well.

Apart from that, the turret appears to be in reasonable shape.
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Last edited by Big D on Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car


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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number

Post by Tapper02 » Wed May 31, 2017 1:18 am

A little bite at a time D! Nice work so far...

-Tom
1944 Autocar M3A1 Halftrack
1944 Schelm Bros. M10 Ammunition Trailer

MVPA # 30507

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number

Post by Big D » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:14 am

Hi Tom,

Thanks for that. Yes, baby steps all the way!
Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number

Post by Big D » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:47 am

Hi all,

A few more pictures of progress.

While I had the turret sitting at the right height, I checked the length of the seat towers. In an earlier post I mentioned the fact that there seemed to be two different seat tower lengths to allow for the armoured floor. I have now confirmed that these seat towers will be the right length for the floor I’ve made. There is about 5mm clearance from what I can see. Not a lot of room but it should be fine.

I finalised the front pipe sections of the turret seat framework while I had it fitted in the turret and have since welded the seating framework all together and painted it so it will be ready to bolt in once the turret is ready. I have emailed some suppliers to get prices on the seat bases and backs so hopefully I will hear back from them soon.

Would anyone have any pictures of where the gun foot pedal firing control cables end up on the guns themselves? I can see that the foot pedals strike the bottom of the cables and push them upwards. Should the foot pedals have a torsion spring on them or similar? I’m just wondering what actually returns the cables to their start position?

I am still working on the fabrication of the steel rack around the exterior of the turret (refer the photo I ‘borrowed’ off the net). From what I’ve been told, the steel strap seems to be 1 ¼ “ wide and ¼ “ thickness, and it is 2” from the surface of the turret measured from the lower edge of the strap.

I would be interested to know how others have fabricated this rack. That is, by putting the correct bend in a length of strap of the right dimensions and then a fold at each end for the end mounts? The other way I thought about doing it was to get some steel cut to the profile of the turret and then cut it to the strap width. Any thoughts on the most economical way?

While I’m on the subject of repairing the turret, what are the views on leaving some bullet holes in the turret? A couple of mates have suggested I do. As they say, it is after all, part of the history of the turret. I’m not sure I am convinced. I would like to be able to say the bullet damage was inflicted during the Battle of the Bulge but it is more likely to be the result of the turret being pounded on a gun range somewhere after the war! To me, there are enough gouges on the turret without leaving holes in it but am interested in the thoughts of others.

The brake slave cylinders came back from the brake guy. He did all the work in his lunchtimes and I got the master cylinder and slave cylinders all sleeved at a very, very reasonable price. They look very good. I have a couple of replacement pistons and new cylinder cups coming from Belgium so will get these completed soon and ready to fit. I am going to give the throttle master and slave cylinders and the clutch master cylinder to the same guy and get him to do those as well.
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Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:59 am

Hi all,

Not a huge amount to report this time as I’ve been on an overseas holiday and then busy with a container load of goodies since we got back. Included in the container were some nice parts from Belgium and France (thanks to Jaap, Philippe and David) as per the pictures: 37mm ready rack, turret rear plate; some conduit, siren, NOS air cleaner; repro locker lids, oil pump, slave cylinder piston cups, and some other odds and ends.

I also managed to get hold of an air cleaner hose and headlight holder (thanks Roy) and acquired the correct driver seat (thanks Bill). With a bit of repair work the seat is now ready to fit. If nothing else, it has been a good time for collecting parts.

As far as the work on the turret goes, prior to doing some work on it, I did a wee exercise in tracking the bullet trajectories through the turret. After all the thought and discussion on whether to keep the bullet holes or not, I figured that I would keep those holes that told a story. As a result I have kept about 4-5 holes on each side of the turret where I could track the bullet through one side and then to, or through the other side. I figure that they will certainly be the basis of some discussion by observers. That was my logic anyway!

The few holes in the rear and front of the turret are now filled and the replacement pieces of turret skirt have been welded on. The skirt was going to be tricky for me as the replacement pieces I had were quite twisted so I got one of the guys in the engineering workshop to do this. It helps having the right equipment and expertise. The bearing faces that were damaged by bullets have been repaired and smoothed and the storage rack is being folded as we speak. I made up a steel block for one of the microphone hooks to go back into the turret. The other one had been cleaned out by a bullet. The replacement footman loops are also now in place. After that, we'll straighten the mounts for the gun ring and then it should be ready for a blast and a paint.
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Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by 1966_Chevelle » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:59 pm

Looks fantastic. Makes me feel lazy when I don't want to do something as simple as sandblasting. :lol:
1941 M-2 ht ord #142
194* M-2
1942 T30 ht
194* M16
194* M15a1
41 M3A1 sc ord #1572
42 M3A1 sc ord #6156
4* M3A1 sc frame #260896
41 M3A1 sc frame #228347
42 GPW 82044
4* Bantam T3/42 Mb.T
M1 trailer
45 M29C

Always looking for m20/m8 armored car projects.
Looking for halftrack variant (m3/4) or any other unique type/project vehicle.

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:30 am

Hi there,

Thanks for that. I need to see that little bit of progress each day to keep me going!

Here are a few more pictures of the turret which is now nearly finished. The storage rack is fitted, footman loops welded on, turret skirt done, and ring mount supports repaired. There are a few bullet holes still there without the turret looking like Swiss (American) cheese. I still need to fit new dome clip buttons on the top of the turret for the canvas cover. All of the old ones have been broken off in the holes. These appear to have a thread of 10-32 so I will drill and retap the holes and source some of the dome clips with the hole in them and screw them onto the turret.

I am undecided (call it dithering) about what to do with the .50cal and the mounts. I have both a ring mount and an elevator mount with the right turret mounting plate, but have yet to decide which way to go. As you can see we have repaired the ring mount supports and I've also fitted the base part of the support for the front of the .50 cal in the elevator mount, so I am hedging my bets!

What's everyone's views about what works best? I think the ring mount looks cool and it is probably right for the year of manufacture of this M8. At the same time, the elevator mount could have its advantages.
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Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by 70th Division » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:04 pm

Hello Big D ,

Yours has got to be one of the most impressive restorations projects I have ever seen !!!
Lazarus like indeed, you have brought this back to life , to a new life, for this century and beyond !!

Keep up your outstanding work, charting a new path in restoration standards and perseverance for all who admire your M8
and your fortitude, and your can-do spirit of Achievement !!!!!

I knew a WW2 Horse Calvary Sgt., Sgt. Lee Miller who was stationed at Fort Riley, Kansas.
He was assigned an M-8 by Ford and the Army to test the heck out of it and try to find flaws and issues with it.
I remember him telling me that their were gun mount issues, I believe with the 50 caliber, but may have been brackets or such.
He said it was great duty. He later transferred to the 70th Infantry Division, as a machine gunner entering combat in the Vosges Mountains in France.
He passed away a couple of years ago, after receiving a commendation medal from France.
When we talked about the M8's , he mentioned his work on field testing it, and the reports they made to the Ford engineers on improvements
to the unit.
The next time I speak to his son, I will see if he has more accurate info on the specifics of testing reports.

Best Regards,

Raymond
USA

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:21 pm

Hello Raymond,

Many thanks for your very kind words. That is appreciated and I am flattered, but I have had plenty of help both on this forum, and from others that know a lot more about these beasts than I do. Your comments certainly give my motivation a boost though! I figure that by the time I get this M8 on the road, there will be very little I don't know about them as well.

I was very interested in what you were saying about Sergeant Miller. What a job that would have been. I would be very keen to hear whether his son knew anymore about his role.
Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by 70th Division » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:03 pm

Hello Darryl,

I will ask Lee's son and let you know if he remembers any more specifics.
I know they rode them hard, trying to find flaws.
I also remember he said something would crack dealing with the gun mount, or hinges, or something
like that, and that Ford had people there that he reported it to, as things were found.

If I remember via thinking about it .... I will post it here. Hopefully his son knows more !!
I can remember many times talking about the M-8 testing at Fort Riley, but it is still hiding in my memory, but it is right there .... :D :D :D

Lee was very great family friend, for most of my lifetime, and was a fellow 70th Inf. Division machine gunner in France with my father.
Lee was hit bad with German shrapnel, once in England, the British doctors melted silver coins to start some reconstruction to his teeth and jaw.
He spent over a year in an Army Hospital in USA with his jaw wired up.
We will never forget what these men went through for our freedoms !!

The 70th Infantry Division Recon unit also used M-8's in France and Germany.

Keep up your excellent work !!

Best Regards,

Ray

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:38 pm

Hi Ray

That sounds great. Many thanks for that and the words of encouragement.
Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by vj » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:20 pm

Big D :shock: wow never sent all this great work. This is great . Your sure have done a lot of work, but it would be fun fun for me.What type of engine has it got. Thanks for all the great picture, wendell :D :D
I have got four running halftracks,plus 5 ton ww2 semi-truck,1943 willys jeep and other ww2 vehicles,plus a lot of parts to trade on. Wendell in Tn.

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by DDTrustee » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:46 pm

looking at your 50 cal mount....the box holder looks late or post-war. I believe the ammo can holders in wwii has 6 circular holes in the bottom.....(BTW, SARCO mg parts sells those NOS!!!)....also, according to the 'bible' "Weapon Mounts for Secondary Armament" shows the D40733 30-50 cradle as the one that mounts on the M49C ring that fits on the top[ of the turret.....there maybe another trolley that uses the two step pin that's shown on yours but I have not seen one. Just reporting what the book says...not saying yours will not work or did not come with the turret.
reenacting and WWII history

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by seacon » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:06 am

Hi D
You can fit the ring AND the plate with the socket. Many M8 had provision for the .50 cal. mount fitted to the turret but left the factory without one. In many cases in the ETO it was directed to install a ring no matter what.
Folding mounts started coming in pretty late but saw service with units in the field, in Europe and the Pacific theaters. So, socket on plate is OK, folding mount W/no ring is good for a very late war fit. With the ring mount fitted (with or without socket) it would be representative of the set up on most M8s in Northern Europe. By converse, the use of ring mounts in Italy is rare. The M8 Osprey by Steve Zaloga explains in further detail what happenend.
ciao
m
dettaglio ITALY april 45 folding.png
A rare view of a folding mount in Italy in April 1945.
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Field mod in Italy, summer 1944
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Similar field mod in Italy but with .50 cal. fitted
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Last edited by seacon on Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Restoration of Ford M8 armoured car U.S Ordnance number 7373

Post by Big D » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:29 am

Hi VJ,

Thanks for that. It has been/is fun. There is always the daily struggle with time and money though! It has a Hercules JXD engine, the same as the scout car.


Hi Dan,
Thanks for that. That MG mount in that picture is not actually mine but that is good information for when I do go shopping for one.


Hi Seacon,

That's great information about the gun ring and elevator MG mount. Many thanks.

I have decided to go with the gun ring on my setup. For one, that is what the turret already had, and with what you say about the dates the elevator .50 cal mount came in, with my M8 being an early 1944 build, the gun ring seems the more appropriate setup.

That means that the .50 cal elevator mount I have is now surplus, but I'll list it in the spare parts I have for sale and see if anyone needs one. I'll use the turret plate with the .50 cal mount socket on it until I find another.
Darryl Lennane
NZ

1943 Willys MB
1941 LP2A MG Carrier
1943 White M3A1 AOP
1942 Willys MBT
1944 Ford M8 Armoured Car
1945 Ford M20 Armoured Car


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