M20 Survivor List

[clintm20]

This is compiled from the old M8/M20 newsletter from the prehistoric pre internet days. Some of the listed numbers are ord#'s rather than the -C Ford number and I'm sure some of the guys left off the -C also so accuracy is not 100% by any means. Feel free to add to the list or ask questions or make corrections.

GBK-54-C
266-C USA-60111038
GBK 311-C USA-60111083
473-C
525-C USA-60111301
596-C
682-C
797-C
1032
1038-C
1241
1572
1578-C
1594
1760
2085-C 2110
2227-C USA-60443694 S (this USA# is original?) Looks way out of sequence. (on the passinger side is stamped 9730E-4 with a X below it)
2322-C
2358-C
2446-C USA-60113218
2471-C
2472
2507
2563
2570
2605
2806-C
2822
2842
2901-C
3144-C USA-60113916
3289-C

xxxx-C 3504
xxxx-C 3715
xxxx-C 4601 (?) Like to get more info on this one

6705-C 3451 USA-60132021-S Original markings still intact, 824th TK-BN. Ropkey Armor Museum
6726-C 3453 USA-60132042-S
6780-C 3614 USA-60132186 627th T.D.
6790-C (ohio)
6976-C
7007-C USA-60132323-S
7009-C 3722 USA-60132325-S
7010-C 3759 USA-60132326 (this vehicle may have been scrapped, it is described as a rough parts vehicle in 1981.)

[j506]

2445c is actually 2446c the reg number 60113218 is correct
this m20 was originally owned by j. Anderson. Currently owned j. Cliche
cheers
john

[ziggyfoos]

Clint, I'd suggest the list be rearranged in numerical order, it appears to be listed randomly making it a bit hard to scan through.

In any case, mine is 3289-C.

Steve

[clintm20]

Thanks Steve, done.

[Joe DeMarco]

Hi Clint,

Thanks for transcribing the list.

You may know that my primary focus of research is the Sherman. Ford-built Shermans are the easiest from which to get the tanks' serial number since it is stamped on the four corners of the upper hull. Despite paint build up & so on, you have four chances to get a good read. Point is, I'm sure Ford did the same thing on the ACs, & that the number stamped on the "four corners" of an M8 or M20 is the Ordnance Serial Number. I've never seen an original Ford dataplate, but I suspect it may have a box for the MFR's Serial Number along with a box for the Ord Serial Number. From the old M8/M20 newsletter list, the following entry is the most interesting...

6705-C Ord#3451 USA-60132021-S Original markings still intact, 824th TK-BN

I would think this unit may have an original dataplate? No doubt in my mind that 6705 is the Ordnance Serial Number, since it is an exact mathematical match to the USA Number that is listed. I would guess "Ord#3451" may be the Manufacture's S/N. This appears to be a loose build sequence number. Ford produced 3791 M20s that were accepted by the Gov't. They may have assembled a few more hulls for ballistic & other test work. Let's just say they did a total of 3810 hulls. Presumably, these hulls would have been numbered 1 to 3810. Just from what's written as "ORD #" on the list you posted, I would say that if it turns out that they are indeed the MFRS Serial Nos. they do NOT have a mathematical correlation to the Ord S/N. That is, it's not possible to derive either the Ord S/N or USA Number if all you know is the MFRS S/N.

As best I have been able to determine, M20s were assigned S/Ns 2 thru 3365. There was a huge gap after that, most likely due to some kind of contract change or cancellation. The serial numbers appear to pick up after that at 6624 & end at maybe 7050.

If they were originally built as M20s, I would think that 3504 & 3715 from the list could be MFRS Numbers. However, I'd guess that the MFRS S/N could only be found on the dataplate, & if the owner was able to report that, why wouldn't he have been able to report the more important number - the Ordnance Serial Number?

Just thinking out loud. Any ideas?

Did the old M8/M20 newsletter list have a similar thing for M8s?


Joe

[clintm20]

Hi Joe,

If they were originally built as M20s, I would think that 3504 & 3715 from the list could be MFRS Numbers.

Ord# was my term which sounds like it must be incorrect, I just meant the 'other number' besides the -C. 6705-C as i undestand was bought directly from surplus by Mr. Ropkey a long time ago so I think the data plates are intact. It should be in his museum in Indiana as far as I know.
The newsletter did list a few M8's, one as I recall was 8339-C. I'd be happy to send you my copy if you would like to borrow or have it copied for your records, it has some neat stuff in it. One of the things is a detailed comparison of early vs. late M20's, GBK-311 vs. 7007-C.
Clint

[clintm20]

3504 has a listed usa number of 60131981 and as having side boxes rather than mine racks. The only other number for an M8 listed is 9571E1 as belonging to F. Ropkey.

My guess the reason for only 2 M8's is this newsletter came out before SECO brought back the batch of M8's (i think) and M8's were extremely rare at that time compared to M20's.

Regarding your question:

If they were originally built as M20s, I would think that 3504 & 3715 from the list could be MFRS Numbers. However, I'd guess that the MFRS S/N could only be found on the dataplate, & if the owner was able to report that, why wouldn't he have been able to report the more important number - the Ordnance Serial Number?

A fair number of newsletter subscribers just mentioned they had vehicles and didn't provide any numbers at all. One guy from Texas had several M8's and provided no data, also one guy with 3 M20's provided nothing at all. It was very informal.

[clintm20]

Joe I found the other number stamped on 6870-C is 3614.

Also

7009-C 3722
7010-C 3759

[Joe DeMarco]

>Joe I found the other number stamped on 6870-C is 3614.

Whereabouts did you find the "other number" Clint?

Do you see any circumstance where an owner or Museum would only be able to find the "other number" but not the serial number?


>7009-C 3722
>7010-C 3759

I think Claude must have provided the "other numbers" for those two, since I already have them in my notes. While the serial numbers are consecutive, it's obvious that the "other numbers" are not. ultimately, with ALL US built WW II AFVs, the owner would REALLY want to try to find the Ordnance Serial Number.

It would be nice to see an original M8 and / or M20 dataplate. An original plate would have the maker's name on there, whereas a remanufactured or rebuilt unit might just have "Ordnance Dept" or the name of the company or depot that did the rebuild. I'd be curious to know if the original dataplate might have "Ford Motor Co." in that great stylized logo of theirs. Pre WW II dataplates were made of brass, but the gov't later mandated the use of metal in order to preserve brass. One knock about Ford dataplates as regards the Sherman was that they were rusting & becoming unreadable a few months after they were made. It was recommended they be coated with some kind of preservative (lacquer?), but that probably didn't last long. There are lots of surviving Ford built Shermans around, but I don't know of a single example that has an original Ford dataplate.


>The serial numbers appear to pick up after that at 6624 & end at maybe 7050.

I was just making educated guesses about the second M20 Production Order the last time we talked about this a few years back. Since then, I did come across a doc which listed PO T-18402 as for 403 units S/N 6624 / USA 60131940 thru S/N 7026 / USA 60132342. So I had guessed right about the starting serial number. In the end, 427 units were officially accepted from this PO. By 1945, there would have been no earthly reason for the government to continue making these. Probably what happened was the government wanted to cut it off at 403, but Ford said they had another 24 hulls assembled & in the pipeline. The logical thing to do would be simply to tack the last 24 on to the end of the existing contract, & that's what I have done above with the guess that 7050 may have been the last serial number. However, from studying this kind of thing for the last 13 years, the logical thing wasn't always what was done. That's why I didn't want to dismiss 9793 that Robert B. reported, & am very curious about 4601.

Anyway, the highest Known good M20 Serial & Reg number I have in my notes is 7010 / USA 60132326. If we assume the logical thing was done & the series ended at 7050, it would be easy enough to set up a monthly production spreadsheet that would include the range of serial numbers & registration numbers assigned. I have the monthly production figures by Production Order. Sometimes overlapping Production Orders can be tricky, The only overlaps with the M20s occurred in March 1945 where 149 units were made on PO T-7227 & 14 were made on PO T-18402. T-7227 was completed in April when the last 4 units were accepted, & 146 units were accepted on T-18402. The overlap months are where you get the odd cases where a unit with a much higher serial number was accepted earlier than one with a lower S/N. For instance, S/N 3365 would have been accepted in April, & 6624 would have been accepted a month earlier in March.


>3504 has a listed usa number of 60131981 and as having side boxes rather than mine racks.

Assuming the Reg Number was found under the paint layers & is original, it would correspond to S/N 6665. I like to record S/Ns & USA Numbers from period pix where possible. The 95th Chemical Service Co used the one made right before that, 60131980, to test out a flamethrower in Pusan Korea, 10/52.

I would certainly think that the "late stowage" features would have been factory installed on all the units made on PO T-18402. Do you see any evidence of weld scars from mine racks on 6870?

Someone recently asked me if it would be possible to figure out the day of acceptance of a US built WW II AFV. Some Grant Medium Tanks & Cadillac built M5 Stuart series dataplates have been seen to have the actual day of acceptance stamped on, but most dataplates I have seen just show the year. (There's another reason why it would be nice to see what's on an original M8 and / or M20 dataplate.) The average daily method would probably get you pretty close, but I have seen clues in the docs that suggest that a miraculous number of units were accepted on the last day of the month, no doubt in order to meet quotas.

Joe

[clintm20]

Do you see any evidence of weld scars from mine racks on 6870?

None at all i'm sure it had the side boxes from the factory. The manufactures serial number 3614 is stamped on the front glacis plate just below the area between the front hatches. Also it is stamped on the back over the radiator louvers. So i had it backwards, the -C is the ord# and the other is the manufacturers serial number. I always thought since the early ones had the GBK prefix it was the opposite.

I was thinking Claude's had a higher serial number than 7010. I don't think he is on the list yet.

[dgrev]

Everyone,

I see mention of -C numbers here and that applies to my Greyhound.

However, a friend has what we suspect is a twin cities produced vehicle.

That being the case, where were the serials/ordnance numbers located on those
vehicles. There is definitely no serial markings on the glacis corners or on
the triangular plates of the tail lights.

Regards
Doug

[TopKick]

So, where are the photos of these survivors?

[clintm20]

6780-C

[clintm20]

This is 2358-C as i found it by the side of the road.

[foofymonster]

there is an M20 somewhere in the U.K. that has it's original data plate and the Bovington m8 has it's original plates