41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
- Wingnutt
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41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
I originally posted this at the end of my “Early Bird” Flea Market thread, but I’ve decided to give it its own thread for more effective future reference.
Last week I found a near-complete bona fide 41-T-2023, THREADING SET, pipe, NPT, compete with rectangular adjustable dies, stock, complete with wrench and adjustable guide, and right hand taps, capacity 1/8 in. to 1 in. It’s missing the taps.
The heavy duty riveted cardboard box may be dirty and a little banged up, as are the cardboard boxes with the split rectangular dies inside, but it’s all original, barely used, and very complete – except for the taps. The stock and dies are a dead ringer for the set used in the RAPD image in the April and July 1945 ORD 6 SNL G-27.
I thought I knew what I might have found standing right there at the flea market, but I wasn’t sure until I got it home and had a chance to look it over better, when I spotted the tiny form number on the left hand corner of the label on the end of the box.
Which reads: “Form M189-20M 5-45”
That’s May 1945.
Last week I found a near-complete bona fide 41-T-2023, THREADING SET, pipe, NPT, compete with rectangular adjustable dies, stock, complete with wrench and adjustable guide, and right hand taps, capacity 1/8 in. to 1 in. It’s missing the taps.
The heavy duty riveted cardboard box may be dirty and a little banged up, as are the cardboard boxes with the split rectangular dies inside, but it’s all original, barely used, and very complete – except for the taps. The stock and dies are a dead ringer for the set used in the RAPD image in the April and July 1945 ORD 6 SNL G-27.
I thought I knew what I might have found standing right there at the flea market, but I wasn’t sure until I got it home and had a chance to look it over better, when I spotted the tiny form number on the left hand corner of the label on the end of the box.
Which reads: “Form M189-20M 5-45”
That’s May 1945.
Last edited by Wingnutt on Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Wingnutt
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
In celebration of finding the little checknut wrench, which was misplaced for awhile...
...I decided to do a little more photo-documentation with all the dies out of their boxes.
And for the specnoids out there, I took some close-ups, showing the size and TPI marked on each split die, matching the ORD 6 SNL G-27 specifications exactly.
In the process, I discovered another form, hidden inside the 1/8” die box. This one is instructions, dated November 1944!
And since I had all the piece out, I decided to do a Raritan Arsenal Publication Department (RAPD) style photo shoot, mimicking the layout of RAPD 22268, from the 1945 ORD 6 SNL G-27. These sets were issued to 3rd Echelon Set No. 1, 3rd Echelon Set No. 2, and 4th Echelon Set No. 2, as well as maintenance companies, regiments, and battalions attached to Armored Forces. Here are some excerpts from the SNL and the RAPD image for comparison from one of the late war ORD 6 SNL G-27.
...I decided to do a little more photo-documentation with all the dies out of their boxes.
And for the specnoids out there, I took some close-ups, showing the size and TPI marked on each split die, matching the ORD 6 SNL G-27 specifications exactly.
In the process, I discovered another form, hidden inside the 1/8” die box. This one is instructions, dated November 1944!
And since I had all the piece out, I decided to do a Raritan Arsenal Publication Department (RAPD) style photo shoot, mimicking the layout of RAPD 22268, from the 1945 ORD 6 SNL G-27. These sets were issued to 3rd Echelon Set No. 1, 3rd Echelon Set No. 2, and 4th Echelon Set No. 2, as well as maintenance companies, regiments, and battalions attached to Armored Forces. Here are some excerpts from the SNL and the RAPD image for comparison from one of the late war ORD 6 SNL G-27.
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- Wingnutt
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
And if anyone runs into any vintage Armstrong marked taps that match the sizes and TPI specified, PLEASE let me know!
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- lt.luke
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
Ok, color me dumb, what are the hex shaped cast pieces?
Luke Sparks
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- mudbox
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
Very cool set, Wingnutt. Glad to see they turned out to be of wartime vintage!
I don't usually grab old taps because, who really knows how well they were taken care of or how they'll cut, but I have picked up a small handful. Unfortunately, none are Armstrong branded.
Not to muck up your thread here, but maybe you can help ID some of the ones I do have. Looks like maybe 2 of them are the correct size for your set, and I'm happy to post them to you if you want them as placeholders...
4" rule for scale, so these are the larger sizes.
Brands are (from left to right)
S.W. Card Mfg. Co.
P&W MFG CT
no name, but the logo looks like Greenfield Tap & Die, marked Greenfield Mass
P&W Co HFD CT.
Looks like the 1" S.W. Card and the 3/4" GTD are the right size for your set...
I've never heard of P&W or SW Card... so maybe you can look them up next time you're at your reference material?
-Jason
I don't usually grab old taps because, who really knows how well they were taken care of or how they'll cut, but I have picked up a small handful. Unfortunately, none are Armstrong branded.
Not to muck up your thread here, but maybe you can help ID some of the ones I do have. Looks like maybe 2 of them are the correct size for your set, and I'm happy to post them to you if you want them as placeholders...
4" rule for scale, so these are the larger sizes.
Brands are (from left to right)
S.W. Card Mfg. Co.
P&W MFG CT
no name, but the logo looks like Greenfield Tap & Die, marked Greenfield Mass
P&W Co HFD CT.
Looks like the 1" S.W. Card and the 3/4" GTD are the right size for your set...
I've never heard of P&W or SW Card... so maybe you can look them up next time you're at your reference material?
-Jason
- W. Winget
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
They should be the guide portion of the set, making sure the pipe or rod is aligned at 90 degrees to the die. In the bottom illustration of the head/handle assembly, it would be located (inserted) under the die pieces shown mounted on top.
I just bought a nice vintage? round U.S. made die set in large wooden box for around $83 at an antique store for 1" and down, cannot see anyone really using a three foot long handle assembly to thread 1/4", but there is a die in there for it.
V/R W Winget
Looking for 1918 Standard B 'Liberty' truck parts
- Wingnutt
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
Those are the guides as called out in the spec. Note that the O.D. of each piece is the same, while the I.D. is the diameter of the pipe it's meant to take (with the pipe size forged-in to the top). That's so that no matter what diameter pipe you are working with, it fits inside the die stock snugly and at a perfect 90* to the die cutters. I am only showing the top side of the die stock. I will post photos of the flip side later. As a description, for now, there's a short collar for the guides underneath. A thick square-head set-screw (same size as the four you see on the top side) in the collar holds the guide in place. (EDIT: If you look at the RAPD figure and my photo you can actually see a bit of the guide collar and the head of the set-screw.)
BTW, not all a dumb question. I have a pretty good size collection of vintage tap and die sets going, including a few different pipe threaders (Craftsman, Wells, /G\T/D\, S.W. Card, Hart, and now Armstrong) and every single one of them works differently! None of the sets with a screwplate type die stock (round head on die stock, round screwplate, round split dies) or the cam type (cam plate, screwplate, four die chasers) have guides.
The drop-head Craftsman threader I have has guides for square non-split dies. Here's a photo of that set-up - and you can see the guides next to each die:
Last edited by Wingnutt on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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- Wingnutt
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
I see that W. Winget already answered. (Sorry, I was typing while you were posting, W.)
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- Wingnutt
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
Thanks for saying so, mud. I don't know if we've all gotten taking-it-for-granted complacent or jaded by our own collective success at finding stuff that matches our research, but finding tools that are actually in packaging dated to WWII still gives me a big thrill! And of course it's always icing on the cake when it matches the RAPD figure.
As for the taps, I will hold out for Armstrong, but thanks for the offer. I actually have a lot of orphan taps and taps in large sets.
The P&W is Pratt & Whitney, btw.
I have an S.W. Card die stock (I'll post a photo later), but not a tap handle, and no dies. S.W. Card, in Mansfield, Mass., is included in the ORD 5 SNL J-2 (that's where all the taps, dies, reamers, etc are...) are.
EDIT: Mud - here's the logo on the S.W. Card die stock I have:
Reads: [S.W.Card Mfg Co. / Mansfield, Mass. - U.S.A. -] No. 10
Easily 75% of all the mfgr's references in the ORD 5 SNL J-2 are /G\T/D\.
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- Wingnutt
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
I am stumped myself by one aspect of this set, I don't mind admitting.... What holds the taps!?
There is no tap handle in the 41-T-2033 nomenclature and none shown in the RAPD figure and there is no provision on this die stock for it to double as a tap handle. Now notice that the Armstrong box doesn't say anything about taps, and there is ZERO doubt that the die stock, dies, and guides in the RAPD figure are one and the same as the Armstrong die stock, dies and guides in this box.
I'm starting to think that the taps were supposed to be turned with the tap wrenches (41-W-3493, -3504) from the large standard bolt and screw tap and die sets (41-T-1895/NC, -1925/NF). Unlike those taps, these taps have pipe threads, but they are forged just like standard taps, with a square drive end to be inserted into a standard tap wrench. Not so with the rectangular split dies, which would not work in the round split die and round screw plate type set specified and shown for the large standard bolt and screw tap and die sets in the 3rd and 4th echelon sets.
Unless I'm missing something, looks like the Army specified and bought standard tap and die sets (one for NC, one for NF), and an NPT pipe thread set with unique rectangular NPT pipe dies, but the NPT pipe taps were to be used with the tap wrenches in the other sets. Unusual, but economical, and pretty clever.
There is no tap handle in the 41-T-2033 nomenclature and none shown in the RAPD figure and there is no provision on this die stock for it to double as a tap handle. Now notice that the Armstrong box doesn't say anything about taps, and there is ZERO doubt that the die stock, dies, and guides in the RAPD figure are one and the same as the Armstrong die stock, dies and guides in this box.
I'm starting to think that the taps were supposed to be turned with the tap wrenches (41-W-3493, -3504) from the large standard bolt and screw tap and die sets (41-T-1895/NC, -1925/NF). Unlike those taps, these taps have pipe threads, but they are forged just like standard taps, with a square drive end to be inserted into a standard tap wrench. Not so with the rectangular split dies, which would not work in the round split die and round screw plate type set specified and shown for the large standard bolt and screw tap and die sets in the 3rd and 4th echelon sets.
Unless I'm missing something, looks like the Army specified and bought standard tap and die sets (one for NC, one for NF), and an NPT pipe thread set with unique rectangular NPT pipe dies, but the NPT pipe taps were to be used with the tap wrenches in the other sets. Unusual, but economical, and pretty clever.
Last edited by Wingnutt on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- lt.luke
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
2 thoughts....no...3.
1: you're right about the handle being borrowed.
2: 11" auto wrench or big Crescent doubles as the handle. (I've done it...not sure it's stable/feasible.
3: what happens if you turn the pipe dies backward? Could the die holder with backwards dies double as a handle for tapping?
1: you're right about the handle being borrowed.
2: 11" auto wrench or big Crescent doubles as the handle. (I've done it...not sure it's stable/feasible.
3: what happens if you turn the pipe dies backward? Could the die holder with backwards dies double as a handle for tapping?
Luke Sparks
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- Wingnutt
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
Nope. Tried it. The holes in the dies don't line up with the holes in the stock when they're backwards.
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- Wingnutt
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
By the way, here're two pics of the other side of the die stock, with and without the guide in the pipe throat. See the groove in the guide? That's what the tightened up set screw sits in. (BTW, I misremembered. It's not a square bolt head like the adjusting screws on the top side, it's a knurled thumbscrew set screw.)
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- lt.luke
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
That's a great set, thanks for sharing
Luke Sparks
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- mudbox
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Re: 41-T-2023 Pipe Threading Set
I don' have a copy of that SNL, but does that kit have any of these tool post wrenches? The square openings look like they would be perfect for the taps.
-Jason
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