41-W-2615 WRENCH, set, socket, midget, 1/4 in. sq-drive

[mudbox]

It would be very helpful for comparative purposes if Don and Mudbox provided a list of the sockets in their sets above, by number of points and opening sizes, listed in the exact same order, left to right, as the sockets in the photos.

Traveling for work or I would be happy to snap a pic in the same order, but I do have this one handy online.
Full size image is HERE.



All are D-I sockets. Sizes and points as follows:
6pt. 3/16"
6pt. 7/32"
12pt. 9/32"
8pt. 1/4" S
12pt. 5/16"
8pt. 5/16" S
12pt. 11/32"
12pt. 3/8"
8pt. 3/8" S
12pt. 7/16"

I suspect I may be missing 1/4" 6pt or 12pt... but everything came together as a set, so I don't know. BUT, the image in the RA PD photo shows 10 sockets total and that's what I've got...
-Jason

[Wingnutt]

No rush, Mud. When you have the time, please provide the data for the Indestro, SK 1 (sm), NB, SK 2 (lg), and SW sets.

Can someone please point me to hell-fire's thread? The one where he posted his FSN-stamped SW box? I know I asked him to detail the sockets that were original to the set when he got it but I don't remember if he ever did that.

...but everything came together as a set...

That's the key. Who knows whether they are original or not, but when they’re all matching in finish and seem intact it’s not unreasonable to assume so.

I suspect I may be missing 1/4" 6pt or 12pt...

Or a 5/16” and 9/32” 6 pt.

…the image in the RA PD photo shows 10 sockets total and that's what I've got...

True, but your set also has five (5) 12-point sockets, and the RAPD image – of a Duro-Chrome set – only shows three (3), which is how many there are in all the SW sets that have been collected, including those that came in FSN stamped boxes.

Once upon a time, way back in the days of yore, before you guys even got here, Roger Briggs posted a photo of Luca’s first SW set, with specs. Greg Hines followed suit and so did I. Larry Long posted his specs. Cliff started making charts to catalog his sets and I grabbed that format and cataloged Cliff’s (at that time, SW, NB) Roger’s (at that time, Duro 4xxx), and my sets (at that time, several DI, SK, and SW) all in one similar chart, to see if we could figure out any major commonality patterns and compare the patterns to the RAPD figure. I already posted the link on page 1, but here it is again: viewtopic.php?p=1465772#p1465772

If you and Don post all your specs, I will expand the chart, including Luca's, Greg's, and hell-fire's - if I can find it. It will have a lot more sample sets now. And we can see if anything pops out at us.

EDIT: I will add one more thing. This is probably the third or fourth time I have taken a hard look at this and every time I come away with the same sense of exasperation. Even if we can resolve the configuration of the RAPD image, let's face it, the ORD probably bought thousands of sets and they may not have all been to spec in terms of sockets, sizes, and points. That's why if you look at the charts/Whiz there are more sockets than 10 (qty of July 44 ORD 6 set), because I am showing a few points options for a few of the sizes. In other words, this is largely rainy day academic, not judgmental.

[mrbill]

Just to add another set to the mix, here's the link to a 1/4" New Britain Set.

Bill

[Wingnutt]

Thanks, Bill. Would you mind listing the specs? I see the two pics of the sockets, and the three (3) 8-pointers are obvious, but I want to make sure I have the 6- and 12-pointers right.

[mrbill]

Thanks, Bill. Would you mind listing the specs? I see the two pics of the sockets, and the three (3) 8-pointers are obvious, but I want to make sure I have the 6- and 12-pointers right.

The set matches the catalog pages in the linked post and contains the following sockets:

1/4" - 6 pt.
9/32" - 6 pt.
5/16" - 12 pt.
11/32" - 12 pt.
7/16" - 12 pt.
3/8" - 12 pt.
1/4" - 8 pt.
5/16" - 8 pt.
3/8" - 8 pt.

Bill

Edit: Largest 8 pt. was 3/8"

[mudbox]

I was able to zoom in some on the SK socket sets that I posted on the previous page.
The small set that I recently found contains 9 sockets:
6pt 1/4"
6pt 9/32"
8pt 1/4"
6pt 5/16"
12pt 11/32"
12pt 3/8"
8pt 5/16"
12pt 7/16"
8pt 3/8"
Full size image HERE


The large SK set came together and contains:
6pt 1/4"
6pt 9/32"
8pt 1/4"
6pt 5/16"
12pt 11/32"
12pt 3/8"
8pt 5/16"
12pt 7/16"
8pt 3/8"
Full size image HERE


So, the sockets are the same across both sets. The large SK box that I have, has the shorter socket divider. Some of these large boxes has a divider that goes the whole width of the box and was likely designed to hold more sockets.

-Jason

[d42jeep]

Here is a picture of what I believe to be my most unmolested Walden set, with mostly all matching cad finish pieces along with the 1/4" set page from Tin Medic's new 1943 Walden catalog. As the set image in the catalog is obviously an artist's rendering it is impossible to distinguish 6, 8 and 12 point sockets. I think that I shared this set with Wingnutt in the past.
-Don
Edit
Here are the pieces in my set.
41-W-2615 Socket Set 1/4" Drive - Stevens Walden marked with Walden crossbar and 3149 Ratchet with ¼” adapter
41-W-2970 Socket ¼” Drive 3/16” 6 point – Walden 3106
41-W-2971 Socket ¼” Drive 7/32” 6 point – Walden 3107
41-W-2972 Socket ¼” Drive 1/4” 6 point – Walden 3108
41-W-2972-100 Socket ¼” Drive 9/32” 6 point – Walden 3109
41-W-2972-120 Socket ¼” Drive 5/16" 12 point - Walden 3110
41-W-2972-140 Socket ¼” Drive 11/32” 12 point – Walden 3111
41-W-2976 Socket ¼” Drive 3/8” 12 point – Walden 3112
41-W-2977 Socket ¼” Drive 7/16” 12 point – Walden 3114
41-W-2972-600 Socket ¼” Drive 1/4” 8 point – Walden 3159
41-W-2972-620 Socket ¼” Drive 5/16” 8 point – Walden 3160
41-W-2972-640 Socket ¼” Drive 3/8” 8 point – Walden 3161
41-H-1509 Handle ¼” Drive Spinner Insulated – Walden 3118
41-H-1498-80 Flex Handle ¼” Drive 5” – Walden 3117
41-B-304 Extension ¼” Drive – Walden 3115

[Wingnutt]

Thanks for the specs, guys.

Don,
Did your case have the FSN on it?
I remember that scan. No specs on that page. Who has the catalog now? Steve (who has chosen to take vacation at a very inopportune time!) or Todd? I would be surprised if the next or the previous page did not have a table with full specs for each of the 1/4-inch drive sockets they were making.

I'll have more to say and show on the subject of midget sockets and catalogs later.

[twertsy]

Thanks for the specs, guys.

Don,
Did your case have the FSN on it?
I remember that scan. No specs on that page. Who has the catalog now? Steve (who has chosen to take vacation at a very inopportune time!) or Todd? I would be surprised if the next or the previous page did not have a table with full specs for each of the 1/4-inch drive sockets they were making.

I'll have more to say and show on the subject of midget sockets and catalogs later.

Sorry I didn't have that one Greg. You folks should really take the time to go through this thread on Garage Gazette. There are 50+ pages of 1/4" drive box sets: http://www.thegaragegazette.com/index.php?topic=10626.0

[Wingnutt]

Don had it.

I am moving this from Bill's 1/4-inch drive set thread...

As usual each of these discussions throws up more related questions than answers - here's some more;

1. WW2 period 1/4" drive stuff you find in the US : can we attempt to put the manufacturers in order, most common to least common. ( and where is Plomb in that list? )

2. When did 9/32" drive start and stop? I don't know if Armstrong and Snap-On 9/32" stuff is additional WW2 production or ordinary production from before WW2. Anyone seen any 9/32" stuff badged as PROTO? (I think British production started during WW2 by Britool and King Dick but didn't last a long time - little evidence )

On your first question, anecdotally, maybe. Answers may vary widely. In my experience/gut-feel: Snap-On, SK, Walden, Duro-Chrome, Williams, Bonney, NB.

On your second, Snap-On 9/32-inch production was 1925 to 1945. I don't know anything about Armstrong 9/32-inch drive, but most Snap-On is date coded.

[Gordon_M]

Thanks for that, so Plomb is not even in the seven most common 1/4" suppliers you find ? - interesting

With the exception of the M110 driver I think all my 9/32" stuff is Plomb, with the odd piece of British production that you get when you buy an auction lot. Might suggest that Plomb went all-out on WF 9/32" stuff during WW2 and left the bulk of 1/4" stuff to other manufacturers

[Wingnutt]

Thanks for that, so Plomb is not even in the seven most common 1/4" suppliers you find ? - interesting

Oops. No, I just forgot them. Also forgot Craftsman.

Rev. #1: Snap-On, SK, Plomb, Craftsman, Walden, Duro-Chrome, Williams, Bonney, NB.

Also, I am not limiting my answers to finding, but my awareness of what others seem to be finding or what pops up on other tool sites, such as Garage Journal, etc. Which is why anecdotal evidence is iffy if you're trying to correlate frequency of them being exchanged now with production numbers in 1943. Snap-On, SK, Plomb, and Craftsman probably pop up more often than others in on-line exchange spaces because they're simply more popular.

[d42jeep]

I find that there is a lot of Craftsman out there as well as Plomb. I personally don't look at Plomb that much as it is much more expensive around here, approaching Snap-on prices. S-K is getting more expensive as well. Walden is usually fairly reasonably priced on the auction site.
-Don

[Wingnutt]

I've been doing some collating.

Here's a slightly re-organized version of my original chart, with additional data, and now split in two with Duro and SK on one chart and Walden and NB on another, for easier viewing.

Duro and SK



Walden and NB



From left to right...

The first three columns identify a superset of 1/4-inch drive sockets by opening size, number of points, and Federal Stock Number.

The next two columns indicate which of those sockets are GMTK (41-W-2615) sockets with an "X". For the unfamiliar, the set was not specified at the piece-part level (every handle, extension and socket) until the April 1945 ORD 6 SNL G-27. That is provided in column 5, showing the eleven (11) sockets that were specified for the late war set. Column 4 is my interpretation of the RAPD figure in the July 1944 ORD 6 SNL G-27, which included a layout of ten (10) sockets, with the openings exposed. The two "X (?}" marks are an either/or situation. It's very difficult to see if that socket is a 6- or an 8-point socket. It's not possible to determine the configuration of the sockets in the early set (October 1942 SNL N-19) from the RAPD figure in that manual, but it had nine (9) sockets. I'm not even bothering with a column for that set.

All the columns to the right of that are sockets that have been collected either as part of a more or less intact set (and that's mainly the case) or accumulatively, indicated with their model numbers/markings.

Here's a new chart.



The organization is very similar to the first chart, except the data to the right, indicated with model numbers, is taken directly from the catalogs indicated in each column heading. If there is a different column for the same Mfgr, it's because the sockets were not the same in successive years. If there are two or more years shown in the same column heading, the sockets did not change.

So the first chart shows what we've been collecting. This chart shows what their catalogs indicate they were making.

Here's another very similar new chart.



There were at least three (3) different midget socket sets being used during the war other than the set in the GMTK (41-W-2615). From left to right they are 41-W-2614 (Duro), 41-W-2615-20 (Bonney), and 41-W-2613-500 (Blackhawk) (which is actually a 100-piece master set with other drive sizes). Each of those had a Mfgr's Code associated with it as a spec source. The spec source was not necessarily a sole supplier source, but, as in other cases in the ORD 5, it is implicit that the spec source was at least one supplier source. Those spec sources are shown in the heading. It's quite possible that sockets being collected may belong to one of those sets instead. It's imperative to understand the superset and the other sets to understand the 41-W-2615, and vice versa. This chart shows those three sets. And I included the spec source catalog info.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Several significant observations jumped off these charts at me as I was finishing them. But as you can imaging with a nitnoid exercise like this, my eyes are crossed and my brain hurts, and I'm going to take some time to organize my thoughts and notes. You guys feel free to comment. That's what they're for.

[mrbill]

Greg,

If you'd like another data point for the S-K 4098 set.

Bill