my 2017 flea market finds...

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my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by maddawg308 » Sun May 21, 2017 9:13 am

I didn't want to hijack someone else's flea market thread with my own stuff, so I started on of my own. Hope this is okay.

I didn't buy this, but it looked really cool - a small Navy gas generator, packaged in the box with a lot of spare parts new in wrap, a couple cool fuel/oil cans, the power cables, and other misc. stuff. The generator itself looked really nice condition. $450 seemed a bit pricey to me, but it's nice to see, nonetheless.
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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by pjones » Sun May 21, 2017 10:51 am

maddawg308 wrote:I didn't want to hijack someone else's flea market thread with my own stuff, so I started on of my own. Hope this is okay.
I wouldn't worry too much about that. We can't get enough of seeing what everyone else finds at the flea. That is a very cool find. I can't read the date on the lid. Did you look at what the date was? I know 450$ is a lot to shell out at the flea and I would have probably passed as well but its probably well worth that besides he would have taken less.

phil
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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by maddawg308 » Mon May 22, 2017 6:46 am

pjones wrote:I can't read the date on the lid. Did you look at what the date was?
There was no date stamped on the tag - I missed the tag on the genset itself, stupid me. Either way, WAY out of my pocket money I had at the fleas that day.

Here's a couple things I found in my stash of old tools, plus a few more I found at the flea on Sunday:

41-W-488 12-inch Diamond "Diamalloy" adjustable wrench
Bonney "Bonaloy" 2893 DBE wrench, 3/4 and 13/16, date code LU
41-W-619-653 Blackhawk 594 DBE wrench, 13/16 and 7/8
41-W-1003 Bonney 585-13 DOE wrench, 1/2 and 19/32, date code LT
41-S-1228 Stanley long blade screwdriver
41-P-1650 Cee Tee Co. 6-inch pliers
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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by maddawg308 » Wed May 31, 2017 6:39 pm

I got a lot of goodies this past weekend and I'm still sorting through them. I have found this is harder than I thought it would be. It's almost impossible, if not so, to find tools that would have actually been part of a WWII tool kit, at least to be certain of it. Unless they are stamped with the military part number, or came from a vet's actual tool kit and you have some pedigree to follow, all we can do is find tools that might have been appropriate for the time period, and say, "it's good enough." Narrow the tools down by type, style, manufacturers (weeding out those who didn't sell to Uncle Sam), then by date code (if the tools even have them). Quite daunting, I'm finding well over 75% of the tools I thought were WWII type tools, are just old tools that look cool but weren't the right type, size, style, maker, etc. Whew...

I hope I didn't mislead anyone with my last post listing the W- numbers of the tools I found, they aren't marked as such, just I tried to "match" the tools up as best I could with the govt. part numbers and listed them. I'll not be doing that any more, to avoid confusion.

Anyways, here's what I found last Saturday at several flea markets I visited:

Bonney 4096B 12-inch breaker bar, 1/2-inch drive
Fairmount 11-inch adjustable wrench, G503 style
pair of L.S. Starrett 1/4-inch center punches
Stanley #3 Phillips screwdriver
Millers Falls long blade electricians screwdriver
Kastar spark plug and ignition points gauge (unfortunately, while this is the right model for the GMTK kit, this one is in poor shape with several of the metal thickness gauges broken off)
Snap-On Universal, 1/2-drive, No. 8 "G" date code
S-K 1/2-drive socket, size 11/16, model 40122
D-I 1/2-drive socket, size 9/16, model 1218
S-K 1/2-drive socket, size 1/2, model 40116
pair of 6-inch diagonal cutting pliers, one is marked "Giller US", other is "H. Boker USA 5179-6"
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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by d42jeep » Wed May 31, 2017 6:59 pm

The sockets and u-joint look good to me. The #3 Stanley Phillips looks good if it has the early patent. How long are the center punches? That's a very good haul!
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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by maddawg308 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:33 am

The Phillips screwdriver does have the early patent date on the shaft, just below the handle. The center punches are 4-7/8 and 4-3/8 long. The shorter one has a little mushrooming at the striking end, but not much.

Thanks!

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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by Wingnutt » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:39 am

maddawg308 wrote:I have found this is harder than I thought it would be.
dawg,
:lol: This could be EVERY GMTK collector's tagline, trust me...

And everyone goes through this phase, too...
maddawg308 wrote:I'm finding well over 75% of the tools I thought were WWII type tools, are just old tools that look cool but weren't the right type, size, style, maker, etc.
You'll start to be more selective in a hurry! :D
maddawg308 wrote:I hope I didn't mislead anyone with my last post listing the W- numbers of the tools I found... I'll not be doing that any more, to avoid confusion.
We all cite the Federal Stock Numbers from time to time, especially when it's a significant find, or to distinguish one related or similar tool from another. I do try to refrain from using them when I'm not sure of the vintage or if it's not exactly spec correct. That can be misleading to newbies. Some of the FSN's for many of the tools have become so second nature that they don't get cited. But I think it's a good thing in general.

Bonney 4096B 12-inch breaker bar, 1/2-inch drive --- personally, I would have no problem putting this in my GMTK, but just as an FYI, or if you're a gnat's asser, the specs for the hinge handle went from 10-1/2" early to 18" late.

Fairmount 11-inch adjustable wrench, G503 style --- note that the CLEVE. is frowned on. There is no hard documented evidence (catalogs, etc) either way, but the 11-inch auto in a reportedly unmolested toolkit reportedly dating to late war was not shaped like that or marked like that. You may see people say that this wrench fits the hub wrench, but that's misleading. Many 11-inch auto wrenches that are not wartime vintage will pass the hub wrench test, which has no bearing on date of manufacture.

Kastar spark plug and ignition points gauge (unfortunately, while this is the right model for the GMTK kit, this one is in poor shape with several of the metal thickness gauges broken off) --- the thinnest gages are very often missing or clipped off. Personally, I don't mind it, but I favor the authentic vs NOS look.

pair of 6-inch diagonal cutting pliers, one is marked "Giller US", other is "H. Boker USA 5179-6" --- Giller is most likely 1950's
Last edited by Wingnutt on Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by mudbox » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:08 am

maddawg308 wrote:I'm finding well over 75% of the tools I thought were WWII type tools, are just old tools that look cool but weren't the right type, size, style, maker, etc.
Be careful here... You'll find a brand that may not be wartime, but you just really like the look/feel of them in your hands. Then, before you know it, you're collecting something quite different just because you're finding them so cheap! :lol: Or, you luck into a nice vintage toolbox and have this need to fill it with the appropriate vintage tools... Tip of the iceberg man. :twisted:

Seems like you're looking for tools with the right lens and you're finding some great stuff.
Starrett had some subtle branding changes on the ends of their punches over time. There's some examples posted here somewhere, but I can't find the thread now.

As Don said, the Phillips looks good for the GMTK with the early patents. The slotted bit driver should be 'cabinet tip' per the specs, but the one found in the Wynmkr kit was the standard tip driver that you have there.

The Boker diagonals are a good brand for your kit. Nice find. And all of the 1/2" sockets look good to me as well.

Wish I could find a nice Bonney breaker bar!

-Jason

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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by Wingnutt » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:11 am

mudbox wrote:There's some examples posted here somewhere, but I can't find the thread now.
We've gotten so much better at this, but still haven't completely licked this infuriating issue, compounded by a less-than-friendly-or-effective search tool!
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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by mudbox » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:41 am

Wingnutt wrote:We've gotten so much better at this, but still haven't completely licked this infuriating issue, compounded by a less-than-friendly-or-effective search tool!
To hell with the search function on this site... :roll: I've been fairly successful recently by using google with the following search string.
starrett punch site:g503.com
So, you can search only the g503 by appending your search with the site:g503.com tag at the end. Obviously works for any site that google crawls.

edit: BINGO!
Of course, the images are in the fed spec thread for drive pin punches HERE! :lol: I remembered that DaveUS6 had posted images of his punches and went looking for that thread.
-Jason

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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by maddawg308 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:08 pm

Many thanks for the great info, guys, it sure help a newbie out!

It's been almost a week since I hit the fleas last Saturday, I haven't had a chance to post up what I found until now, so here goes:

Pic 1:
Crescent Tool Co. flat screwdriver, shaft is 5.75 inches long
Irwin flat screwdriver, handle still has some OD green paint on it, shaft has "Irwin US of A, Gov. Stock #41-S-1076" inscribed on it. Too bad former owner used it as a prybar and slightly bent the bottom 2" of the screwdriver
Barcalo-Buffalo 10-inch slip-joint pliers, Screw holding the two halves together is not original
Utica 41-6 wire cutting pliers
Plomb WF-24 3/8-drive universal
Herbrand "Van Chrome" No. 87 ignition wrench, I put it on the wire wheel to remove some corrosion and it looks copper in color ???
Dunlap 8-inch adjustable wrench, marked "Dependable Quality" on one side, "Forged in USA" on the other. Not sure if this could have military pedigree, not too familiar with Dunlap.
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Pic 2:
The gold nugget - a 11-inch adjustable wrench, very nice shape with "USN NAF-1106-4" inscribed into the top jaw on one side. Made by Diamond Calk Horseshoe Co.
large file handle - no pedigree but it's wood and metal and looks the part
stubby flat screwdriver, marked "Western Auto HB 1304". Once again, not sure if Western Auto ever had govt. contracts, but this looks old enough to have been there...
6-inch metal rule, a little thin and narrow, not sure if it's right. Back side has decimal equivalents down to 64ths. No maker I can see.
pair of WISS 7-inch tin snips, one is a A-13, other is V13. Which one of these is correct?
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Pic 3: Details of the WISS snips:
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Pic 4: Detail of the 11-inch adjustable. While this is a really cool save, I don't really have a desire to build a Navy-specific GMTK, so this will either be resold here to fund more tool purchases, or listed on our favorite auction site.
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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by d42jeep » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:04 pm

The Wiss V13 snips look good as do the Utica 41-6. If the file handle is either 1" or 1-1/4" in diameter it would be good. I personally like the Barcalo water pump pliers a lot. Dunlap would possibly be a bit of a stretch but could be a placeholder. Irwin driver is postwar. Hope that helps.
-Don
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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by Wingnutt » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:55 am

Dawg,

On the Herbrand ignition wrench, I'm not sure why some steel does that, but I've had other wrenches (especially Williams) with the same hue, and that's just from age or light cleaning with steel wool.

To elaborate on some of Don's replies, because sometimes it's good to know why as much as what...

- The "Gov. Stock #41-S-1076" has been tracked with very strong evidence to NET 1950.
- WISS is a verified supplier, and from a period catalog we know that their A-13's are 7" straight cut pattern, and their V-13's are 7" combination cut pattern, which is precisely what the GMTK specifies. It's very difficult to distinguish circular cut pattern from combination cut pattern snips (both look like "duckbills"), so WISS is an especially good choice because you know what it is by the model number. Nice find.

The file handle is probably an unmarked Lutz.
d42jeep wrote:I personally like the Barcalo water pump pliers a lot.
Thou shall not covet thy newbie's Barcalo water pump pliers!
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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by d42jeep » Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:24 am

Wingnutt wrote:
d42jeep wrote:I personally like the Barcalo water pump pliers a lot.
Thou shall not covet thy newbie's Barcalo water pump pliers!
No coveting involved in my answer as one pair is plenty for me. I just said that I liked them. They look to me as if they would work as a 41-P-2100 although they are difficult to date. I can visualize the screw replacement as a field repair. I believe that the screw and nut are reversed on my pair so they probably fell off at some point in time as well.
-Don
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Barcalo Buffalo water pump pliers
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Re: my 2017 flea market finds...

Post by maddawg308 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:05 am

Wingnutt wrote:Dawg,

On the Herbrand ignition wrench, I'm not sure why some steel does that, but I've had other wrenches (especially Williams) with the same hue, and that's just from age or light cleaning with steel wool.

To elaborate on some of Don's replies, because sometimes it's good to know why as much as what...

- The "Gov. Stock #41-S-1076" has been tracked with very strong evidence to NET 1950.
- WISS is a verified supplier, and from a period catalog we know that their A-13's are 7" straight cut pattern, and their V-13's are 7" combination cut pattern, which is precisely what the GMTK specifies. It's very difficult to distinguish circular cut pattern from combination cut pattern snips (both look like "duckbills"), so WISS is an especially good choice because you know what it is by the model number. Nice find.

The file handle is probably an unmarked Lutz.
Great info all, thanks!

Not familiar with what NET 1950 is, is that the name for a newer iteration of the GMTK? If so, what are the nomenclatures for the newer, post-war sets?

Here's a few pics of the markings of the Navy adjustable wrench, a G503 user asked I submit photos for his review (and posterity's sake, for the record).
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