2017 flea

[d42jeep]

It could be tools from P&C. They would probably have used a Plomb toolbox during the war since by then they were owned by Plomb and they were offering open gear ratchets in the 1939 catalog. Here are the P&C 1/2" drive and 3/4" drive images from that catalog.
-Don

[mudbox]

It could be tools from P&C.

Good thing I left myself 2% wiggle room! Good call, Don! I think you're spot on.
I don't know why I didn't think to look at P&C...

I didn't see that chest in the '39 catalog, but it's definitely in the '48, and has the same number as the Plomb version... 9990


And the 3/4" drive tools look spot on as well. Here's the image from the '48 catalog.


So, Sam... if you thought it was expensive to put together a set of Craftsman (H) drive tools... check out what they get for vintage P&C or Plomb.... I have a hard enough time finding wartime P&C stuff over here in the states. Let us know how we can help!

Happy hunting!

-Jason

[kw573]

Wingnut,

The circled items are, I believe, the 3/4" ratchet and the 1/2" ratchet.
Yes I do have listings, not all have FSNs. I can copy and post. There are several pages.

Mudbox,

Yes, the box is a Plomb. It is the only box model I have come across that matched the picture. I have managed to acquire a tatty example to use and one day restore. It never ocurred to me (not being a tools man) that the Plomb box would use Plomb tools. D'oh

So, I'm am at a decision point here.
Is it true that there will not be a Craftsman appropriate 3/4"dr. wartime socket set to add to my toolbox?
If so, what would be a reasonable "bedfellow" for the Craftsman tools.

However, if I started again with Plomb tools, (after having already supported USPS for a long while), I'd have a better chance of building a legitimate set. But at huge cost.

Anyway, here is the tools list from the TM.
Note the tools for the Plomb box are listed as "In hand tool box".













Clear as mud???

Jason, there is pretty much nothing here in Australia. All my tools and this box have come from USA, mostly ebay.

Sam.

[Wingnutt]

The circled items are, I believe, the 3/4" ratchet and the 1/2" ratchet.

I agree, based on the size, Sam. It was the style that befuddled me. We're all well accustomed to the open gear 1/4-inch drive Craftsman Circle-H, and I knew about Thorsen's 3/8-drive open gear, but I wasn't aware of any open gear ratchets in the larger sizes. It was surprising to see. Great work by Don to track it down to P&C! I will take a smidge of credit for pointing it out as a key "tell," and give a little credit to Jason for recognizing the box, which definitely helps confirm it. As Don pointed out, by wartime, P&C was a managed brand of Plomb, still making their own tools in their own style, as well as making tools to help fill Big Daddy Plomb contracts (including Wright Field). So it could be just P&C, or it could be all in the family on this wrecker set.

And what a tool-set it is! Quite the interesting variety of tools! Thanks for the SNL. That will keep us pre-occupied for days.

I have no advice on your dilemma. It's a tough call. Believe it or not, the only people in the world who now know (and care) that the tools shown in the RAPD figure are probably made by P&C are probably you, me, Don, and Jason, and anyone else reading this thread - and they'll forget in a year! So, you could 'play dumb'. But I know that if you're anything like me (and probably the rest of us), it will bug you. Expense is one factor. Time is another. I don't shop on eBait. Perhaps P&C is readily available. I hardly ever see it in the wild, and especially not in 3/4-inch drive size. Completing this set in P&C would be a lifelong task for me and I doubt I would complete it.

Another thing to consider - and I strongly emphasize that you consider this: there may have been more than one supplier. There is a tendency among collectors on this site to collect by RAPD figure, and I am a broken record about the pitfalls of that approach. They may have used P&C/Plomb for the RAPD figure, but P&C/Plomb are clearly NOT the only tool makers that made the socket tools specified in the SNL. And the figure is only there to graphically accompany the SNL. Nobody in the supply chain was ordering tools off a figure. And one strong indicator against identifying a sole supplier based on the RAPD figure is the item on page 86: KEY, release. That is typically associated with Blackhawk tools. It was used to remove sockets from drive ends in an early generation of Blackhawk's "Lock-On" technology. Did P&C use one also? I would try to determine that if I were you. If they did not, again, it may indicate they spec'd this kit with Blackhawk as a model.

[Gordon_M]

...there is pretty much nothing here in Australia. All my tools and this box have come from USA, mostly ebay.

Sam.

Feeling the pain there, there are more Plomb items on auction here in the UK, but not a lot. No point in paying an auction seller $10 for a socket that would cost $56 to post. This forum is the place to be, and if the contributors here know you are looking for particular items or sizes they will chip in.

My pile is mostly Plomb. I think I have just the odd P&C item, in fact I'm sure I've seen P&C branded Wright Field (WF) marked tools too, presumably as part of the Plomb group.

[Wingnutt]

My pile is mostly Plomb. I think I have just the odd P&C item, in fact I'm sure I've seen P&C branded Wright Field (WF) marked tools too, presumably as part of the Plomb group.

As Don pointed out, by wartime, P&C was a managed brand of Plomb, still making their own tools in their own style, as well as making tools to help fill Big Daddy Plomb contracts (including Wright Field).

[mudbox]

Is it true that there will not be a Craftsman appropriate 3/4"dr. wartime socket set to add to my toolbox?
If so, what would be a reasonable "bedfellow" for the Craftsman tools.

This is true, I think. <SK> made the circle K line for Craftsman, and they (<SK>) would have been too busy filling their own contracts during the war to produce the Craftsman line.

That being said, it seems to me that the most appropriate 'bedfellow' for the circle H line would be some 3/4in drive <SK>. There's what looks like an unplated ratchet and 2 short extension on eBay now (HERE), and the odd unplated socket or two. But filling out the set would take a lot of time and too much energy! Better to find one complete set and be done, I would think.

Another thing to consider - and I strongly emphasize that you consider this: there may have been more than one supplier.

I would echo this consideration. Any wartime manufacture of sockets would do for a complete set. Or even a mixed brand set would likely be more realistic and add some character to the box.
Dated wartime brands would be best. Snap-On, Wright, Blackhawk, or D-I (Duro made); but there were many other brands that made 3/4in stuff for the war effort, to include: Williams, Plomb, <SK>, Armstrong, P&C, Cornwell, Owatonna, Walden, TRUTH, and Herbrand. So, lots to choose from.

Now, I'm not trying to spend your money, but there is what appears to be a complete set of '44 dated Snap On 3/4in drive tools on eBay now. But, the cost is prohibitive...
Link not for the faint of heart HERE.

Quick shout out to MrBill who has a jump start on all of us for the 3/4in drive stuff. All wartime dated Wright! Kudos to you Bill!
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=267543&start=30#p1656523

Edit to add:

And one strong indicator against identifying a sole supplier based on the RAPD figure is the item on page 86: KEY, release. That is typically associated with Blackhawk tools.

Didn't Snap-On have their 'loxocket' line as well? Did that need a tool to remove them?

-Jason

[Wingnutt]

...it seems to me that the most appropriate 'bedfellow' for the circle H line would be some 3/4in drive <SK>.

That's a great idea.

Edit to add:

And one strong indicator against identifying a sole supplier based on the RAPD figure is the item on page 86: KEY, release. That is typically associated with Blackhawk tools.

Didn't Snap-On have their 'loxocket' line as well? Did that need a tool to remove them?

I don't think so, but I'm not sure. Something to track down.

Sam,

Here's more on the "KEY, release" piece from your SNL, in case my reference to it is not convincing enough...

This is from the March 1945 ORD 5 SNL J-4:



Posted in this thread, if you want to read more about Blackhawk's 100-pc set: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=277021&p=1610527&h ... d#p1610527

Note that by 1943, Blackhawk had improved their "Lock-On" technology so that it could be released with a thumb. So your Wrecker Set manual (what is the date, by the way?) and the ORD 5 SNL J-4 were published on older information, but still potentially indicative of a mfgr they used as a model.

[d42jeep]

I run across a bit of P&C here on the west coast but from what I read on the Garage Journal it is very common in Oregon, where it was manufactured. Along with Plomb, I pick them up if I see them. I usually ignore 3/4" drive tools, however, because I have a full set of modern ones and they aren't used in the WW2 sets I collect. Here are the P&C tools I've run across in the last month or so and these will eventually end up in Cincinnati.
-Don

[gpw_42]

There's what looks like an unplated ratchet and 2 short extension on eBay now ... Better to find one complete set and be done, I would think.

...there is what appears to be a complete set of '44 dated Snap On 3/4in drive tools on eBay now. But, the cost is prohibitive...
Link not for the faint of heart HERE.

Adding screenshots of the auctions in question, so that in 6 months, somebody will understand the discussion. Other than the academic side of learning, I have no dog in this hunt.

[henry501]

Greg,

I'm hurt, embarrassed, appalled and will seek restitution for you forgetting to add me to the short list of members who will care that the tools shown in the RAPD are P&C given how slavishly devoted I am to the RAPD images!

OK, truth be told I'm not that really offended since I realize that the focus of the comment was more about P&C tools being shown in the RAPD versus the RAPD itself.

Thank you,
Henry

[Wingnutt]

If you're referring to this...

...the only people in the world who now know (and care) that the tools shown in the RAPD figure are probably made by P&C are probably you, me, Don, and Jason, and anyone else reading this thread...

...all the people I named were substantively involved in the immediate discussion of this particular wrecker set RAPD mage at that time. It was meant to point out to Sam that it's a VERY small circle of people who now shares the knowledge that the set in the image is likely P&C, knowledge that almost certainly wouldn't be shared by a bunch of MV enthusiasts at an MV show in Oz standing around Sam's wrecker admiring his Craftsman Circle-H oriented toolkit, in other words.

I wasn't trying to characterize Sam, Don, Jason, or myself as especially more devoted to this or any other RAPD image than anyone else. That's not something I've given much thought to, frankly. But your self-proclaimed degree of slavishness to them in general is now duly noted for the annual awards banquet!

[kw573]

Oh, man!
I've set the cat among the pigeons a bit here.

But thank you for all the information and support. I need to read and re-read to follow properly.

I know that an RAPD is a picture in a TM, but what does RAPD mean? . . come from?

Further mud-in-the-water is that this wrecker was produced by Ward LaFrance (4500 units) and Kenworth (500 units), but the pictures in the TM, dated March 1944, show the Kenworth vehicle, which are the vehicles that came to Australia. Some differences seem to include the style of the hand tools box, which implies a different supplier, . . which implies . . . .

And, yes, I realize that the image is only typical or representative. Which is good, gives us some latitude!
My black-and-white thinking (read 'very mild aspergers'. Don't laugh, this level of attention to detail requires it! I know how you think ) does not extend to the apparently insurmountable task of assembling a P&C 3/4dr. set when a clear 'cousin' to the Craftsman is the S-K. Looks like I'll be changing tack from circle K to S-K. Thanks for the suggestion, Jason.
The set on epay is, indeed beautiful and almost unique, but as you say . . . .

Wingnutt, the image of the Key did not appear in my view of your post.
"almost certainly wouldn't be shared by a bunch of MV enthusiasts at an MV show in Oz standing around Sam's wrecker admiring his Craftsman Circle-H oriented toolkit," > very true.

Regarding the SNL list, many of the items are still on my hunt list. So if you have a less common item listed, say for example the ignition spanners or deep sockets (in Craftsman underline circle H), I'd love to hear from you.

gpw_42, I think the screen shot is a very good idea. I have read old threads and the linked images are long gone, really limiting the research value of these threads.

Have a nice day.
Sam.

[Wingnutt]

Not sure why it's not showing up, but it's not the key itself, but the appearance of it in another SNL, for a Blackhawk kit. If you click on the link and scroll down, you'll see the SNL pages. It unmistakably refers to Blackhawk.

[lt.luke]

RAPD is the Raritain Army (Depot) Publishing Department. Raritain is in NJ USA. It was the place that made the illustrations (or published them from the field) and published them into the TM's for the vehicles. They would (as you pointed out) select a vehicle and use it (and it's Basic Initial Issue) to show Soldiers what parts or tools were being referenced. Soldiers did and do put a lot of stock in pictures for conducting inspections or maintenance.

What else?