1939 Fed Specs: Putty Knife (41-K-546)

[sincitygpw]

Hi All
In reference to the F & S markings having worked at a shop that sold putty knives it stood for F=flexible & S = stiff, not slightly less flexible I never said that that the F marked ones were the ones we should be looking for! I was just trying to help out with the question of F & S markings on the knives .I have one of each for my two kits.Just saying!
Thanks
Dave

[d42jeep]

Dave,
I don't disagree with anything you are saying. I just don't want any guys with the S marked Red Devil putty knives to feel that they are necessarily incorrect. I went out to the garage and discovered that I have both styles as well. I'm staying with the S marked knives in my sets as a matter of personal preference, but it's good to have options.
-Don

[Wingnutt]

This has come up a couple times before, though I can't seem to find the threads now. It's a good thing it's coming up again here on this thread this time.

In my opinion, the way the word "flexible" is used descriptively in the Fed Specs, as an adjectival qualifier, not in a table, or as a type (distinguished from other types, e.g., "stiff"), is not enough to eliminate the putty knives Red Devil called "stiff" and marked P1-1/4S. The paragraph is basically describing what the federal government considers a putty knife to be under this stock number.

EDIT: Goodell seems to have used the same distinction and marking, which indicates it may have been industry wide. Hmm. That does lend more credence to Ozzie's interpretation, though I still would've liked to have seen it called out more overtly as a spec in the Fed Specs and in the ORD 6.

Lastly, if you want some quantified proof for Don's "slightly less flexible" interpretation for "stiff", note that the 1951 Red Devil catalog lists a box of twelve (12) P1-1/4S putty knives as weighing 1 lb. 8 ozs, while a box of twelve (12) P1-1/4F putty knives weighed 1 lb. 6 ozs. That means a Red Devil "F" knife weighs ~0.16 ozs less than a Red Devil "S" knife. I have had them both and I can barely tell the difference with some pressure on the blade.

A more interesting issue for me is the lack of bolsters on many of the putty knives some people have in their kits, to include the NOS Goodell putty knives sold awhile back. In my opinion, there is far less room** for debate or backsliding on that. The Fed Specs make it very clear that each putty knife should have a bolster, the figure of the putty knife in the Fed Specs clearly shows a bolster, and the putty knives in all three (3) figures of putty knives in the April and July 1945 ORD 6 SNL G-27 - including a Goodell, by the way - all have bolsters. And note that putty knives without a bolster were made and commonly sold as economy line items.

** Oddly, the figure of a putty knife in the US Navy ASO Catalog Class 41 section does not seem to have a bolster. And it is possible that the GGG-K-481 Fed Specs they are citing are newer than 1939 and possibly did not include a bolster. It's also possible that they just used the wrong putty knife for the image. But there is an "out" for people with putty knives and no bolster.

[Wingnutt]

For some visuals, Cliff has created a very handy graphic that consolidates the ORD 6 RAPD figure putty knives, found in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=273568&p=1592708&h ... e#p1592708

Here is the pertinent page from the 1951 Red Devil cat I referenced above...

Red Devil catalog putty knife page.jpg (86.45 KiB) Viewed 3003 times

...and the excerpt from the Class 41.

Class 41 putty knife.jpg (97.74 KiB) Viewed 3003 times

[sincitygpw]

Hi All
Greg
Thanks for posting the threads it is a good read and very good information! I wish I had a Goodell they sure are nice!

Don
After reading the other threads that Greg posted I see where you had stated F for flexible S for stiff I did not know that this had allready been discussed,the question came up again so I tried to answer,I think that both the F&S are both correct knives.

Thanks
Dave

[d42jeep]

Dave,
No worries. More participation adds to the collective knowledge. I agree with you about both being likely to be correct. Now we just need Tin to find some vintage Red Devil catalogs to verify when the location change occurred. I happen to know that he has quite a Red Devil hand tool collection.
-Don

[henry501]

Based upon this information it looks like Red Devil moved from Irvington, NJ to Union, NJ in 1945 or thereafter.

1945http://trowelcollector.blogspot.com/2014/10/red-devil-inc.html?m=1

Thanks,
Henry

[17thAirborne]

I don't read that the same way. I just see they changed the name of the tool company to Red Devil in 1945'

Much of the info about them is a bit sketchy and somewhat contradictory regarding the date of move to Union.

I did find a reference to them being in Union at least by Jul 56.

I also found this here: http://infohouse.p2ric.org/ref/06/05748.htm

"The Red Devil facility, classified under SIC Code 3423 (Hand and Edge Tools), is a small plant with 129 employees. The Union facility has been in operation since 1955. Their main product is a line of highly polished and lacquered putty knives and wall scrapers. The cleaning of these stainless steel blades prior to final product assembly has always been a critical step in the operation. The company had traditionally used vapor degreasing with a chlorinated solvent, but desired to switch to a less toxic, more environmentally friendly cleaning method using aqueous degreasing agents."

Then I found this here: http://www.bernards.org/community/About ... wnship.pdf

"Trustees of the Owen estate sold the property to Mr. and Mrs. George Ludlow Lee Sr. in 1940. Mr. Lee was owner/treasurer of the Red Devil Tool Company of Irvington, 1937-1950; he later became chairman of the board, renamed Red Devil, Inc., now at Union, N.J. Mr. Lee served on the Bernards Township Planning Board and was its vice-chairman in 1944. He and his wife, Dulcinea Harrison Smith Lee, continued operation of the flourishing fruit farm, where local markets and roadside stands were supplied with the produce."

Ludlow worked for RD at Irvington until 1950. This lends greater credence that the plant in Union did not open until 1950 or so.

On a map, Union and Irvington are about 2 miles apart fyi.

Here is a pic of the Union NJ factory I would guess late 50's to late 60's. Looks like post 1945 architecture to me.

factory 1.jpg (191.47 KiB) Viewed 2948 times

And here is what I believe to be the definitive data from a lawsuit regarding toxic waste at the plant found here: http://www.leagle.com/decision/198265NJ ... UNION%20TP.

"The subject of this controversy is an owner-occupied, single-story and part-basement industrial plant and warehouse complex with two small yard structures and various site improvements. The building was constructed in stages during the period 1950 to 1969. The industrial plant portion, which was built in 1950, is utilized for the manufacture of painters' tools and consists of 49,240 square feet of manufacturing space, 16,000 square feet of office space, 6,850 square feet of warehouse and 3,510 square feet of basement area. This portion of the complex is glazed brick on concrete block construction."

Based on this evidence, I believe that any Red Devil scraper marked with Union NJ was made no earlier than 1950 and the correct TK version would be marked Irvington NJ. SHoot away at my logic please. I'm not trying to stir the pot, just add to out knowledge base.

[d42jeep]

Interestingly the 1951 Red Devil catalog still shows the Irvington address where they may still have had corporate offices. Unfortunately, I was unable to see the markings on the actual tools. Here is the link to the catalog.
http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/ ... no-21s.pdf
-Don

[17thAirborne]

Thats a great catalog. It took me a while to find one, but here is an image of a sandpaper holder from that catalog and it is embossed with

IRV. N.J. U.S.A.

This makes the 1955 date seem more realistic for when they moved production to Union, unless they did the move in 1950 and did not update their tool images with the new UNION N.J. logo in their 1951 catalog. In either case I think a proper WW2 tool should have Irvington on it.

irv nj.jpg (113.77 KiB) Viewed 2921 times

[Hartofoak]

I don't know how, but these "Red Devil" slip-joint pliers turned up last month on an auction site here in the UK. According to "AA" this trade mark was used by Smith & Hemenway Company, an early twentieth century tool maker that was acquired by the Crescent Tool Co in 1926. I have also got a Red Devil hacksaw frame that arrived via "Wingnutt" some years ago. I just wondered if there was any connection with the Red Devil putty knife manufacturer mentioned in this thread.
EDIT: I've just re-read 17th Airborne's earlier post and think I've answered my own question about the connection ....

Red Devil 924 Slipjoints.jpg (158.78 KiB) Viewed 2916 times

[mudbox]

With so many Red Devil knives coming out of the woodwork, I thought I'd post a pic of the putty knife in my kit.
I don't believe that United States Cutlery Co. in on the Verified Suppliers List, but they don't show up on the Questionable or No Contracts list either. Hey, with a name like United States Cutlery it's gotta be a good choice, right?
This knife has been shortened over time, but has a great clear brand stamp.
Reads:
United States Cutlery Co.
Belleville N.J.
Tool steel

The only thing that worries me is the 'Tool Steel' mark. Would putty knives be made of Tool Steel during the war?


-Jason

[sincitygpw]

Hi All
On the Irvington marked putty knives,should we have the type with two big rivets as shown in one of the manuals on the handle or the other type with two small pins and the big center rivet?
There are examples posted of both which would be more correct? Edit: war time,pre war?
Thanks
Dave

[17thAirborne]

I was surprised to find the image I posted of the RD putty knife "F" on ebay. I have an opening bid on it, so wish me luck.

[sincitygpw]

Hi Oz
I saw that a few days ago,Good Luck on your bid! Don't know how many will be bidding on it,I won't bid on it I saw a picture in one of the manuals with a 43 date on it showing two big rivets on it that is like the one I have on my S marked Irvington blade,I will have to find an F marked Irvinton with two big rivets to match at the swap meet never thought about the rivets much until now!
Good Luck!
Thanks
Dave