1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1228)
- Wingnutt
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1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1228)
Here is a link to the main 1939 Fed Specs thread:
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=246473
Before I post the screwdriver specs, here is an SNL scan.
While there are some minor terminology differences between the SNL’s, the screwdrivers did not materially change during the war, and this one (from the TM 10-475) is a very clear scan, and richest in description for my purposes.
See how the SNL cites “type”? As we conjectured a long time ago, they are referring to Federal Standard Stock Catalog specification distinctions. When the SNL’s choose to include them or not in their descriptions of each tool seems fairly arbitrary, although in general, they were used less and less as the war progressed, and that is true of the screwdrivers as well. The 1945 ORD 6 SNL G-27 did not cite any “type” for any screwdriver, although the descriptions were still perfectly consistent with the “type” described in the fed specs.
They are useful, obviously, for correlating the tools in the GMTK SNL to the tools in the fed specs, as you can see on the title page.
Here are the first couple pages, which include General Requirements (about ALL screwdrivers), and the specs for the Electricians’ screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1228). (You can see the Close Quarter on this scan to, but I will post separate thread for clarity and later search.)
Notes on Type I (cabinet):
- The General Requirements make no mention of composite handles and E-1b states wooden (although that may have changed during the war).
- These are referred to as an “electrician’s” screwdriver in the GMTK SNL, but a “cabinet” screwdriver in the Fed Specs.
- Strangely, the text makes no mention of, nor does the figure show, a blade with a non-flaring tip, which is characteristic of “cabinet” screwdrivers.
- Note that Table I specifies dimensions that the GMTK SNL does not bother to repeat. Whether than means the Ordnance Dept did not care about those dimensions or not is debatable, I suppose, but my interpretation is they had limited space in the SNL, they cited the most relevant dimension, and by citing the Fed Spec “type”, it implies all the other fed specs for that type are in play.
- Note that E-1d allows for + / - 1/2” in blade length. (This may put many found examples into kits and save countless screwdrivers from being ‘shortened’.)
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=246473
Before I post the screwdriver specs, here is an SNL scan.
While there are some minor terminology differences between the SNL’s, the screwdrivers did not materially change during the war, and this one (from the TM 10-475) is a very clear scan, and richest in description for my purposes.
See how the SNL cites “type”? As we conjectured a long time ago, they are referring to Federal Standard Stock Catalog specification distinctions. When the SNL’s choose to include them or not in their descriptions of each tool seems fairly arbitrary, although in general, they were used less and less as the war progressed, and that is true of the screwdrivers as well. The 1945 ORD 6 SNL G-27 did not cite any “type” for any screwdriver, although the descriptions were still perfectly consistent with the “type” described in the fed specs.
They are useful, obviously, for correlating the tools in the GMTK SNL to the tools in the fed specs, as you can see on the title page.
Here are the first couple pages, which include General Requirements (about ALL screwdrivers), and the specs for the Electricians’ screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1228). (You can see the Close Quarter on this scan to, but I will post separate thread for clarity and later search.)
Notes on Type I (cabinet):
- The General Requirements make no mention of composite handles and E-1b states wooden (although that may have changed during the war).
- These are referred to as an “electrician’s” screwdriver in the GMTK SNL, but a “cabinet” screwdriver in the Fed Specs.
- Strangely, the text makes no mention of, nor does the figure show, a blade with a non-flaring tip, which is characteristic of “cabinet” screwdrivers.
- Note that Table I specifies dimensions that the GMTK SNL does not bother to repeat. Whether than means the Ordnance Dept did not care about those dimensions or not is debatable, I suppose, but my interpretation is they had limited space in the SNL, they cited the most relevant dimension, and by citing the Fed Spec “type”, it implies all the other fed specs for that type are in play.
- Note that E-1d allows for + / - 1/2” in blade length. (This may put many found examples into kits and save countless screwdrivers from being ‘shortened’.)
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- mudbox
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1
Here are some 5-1/2" drivers I've been hanging onto for my GMTK.
I'm up in the air as to which to permanently put in the kit.
Based on the spec, type 1 (cabinet tip), the Cornwell driver fits best. Agree?
Top to bottom in the pic:
Cornwell
Vlchek
Bonney
-Jason
I'm up in the air as to which to permanently put in the kit.
Based on the spec, type 1 (cabinet tip), the Cornwell driver fits best. Agree?
Top to bottom in the pic:
Cornwell
Vlchek
Bonney
-Jason
- Tin Medic
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1
I think the Cornwell is the only option between those 3.
1952 M-37
US ARMY 20955830
US ARMY 20955830
- pjones
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1
Jason,
I agree with Steve. The Cornwell is the closest to specs of the three.
Phil
I agree with Steve. The Cornwell is the closest to specs of the three.
Phil
pjones
'42 Ford GPW 7127
Need a MVMTS/GMTK?
Need a jeep toolkit?
'42 Ford GPW 7127
Need a MVMTS/GMTK?
Need a jeep toolkit?
- d42jeep
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1
Wingnutt, thanks for posting the section about the 1/2" plus or minus. That specification gives me two more candidates that I didn't have before. Here are some pictures of my screwdrivers.
-Don
-Don
- Attachments
-
- 5" blades
- image.jpg (40.05 KiB) Viewed 4303 times
-
- 2-1/2" blades - Crescent, Irwin and unmarked
- image.jpg (79.53 KiB) Viewed 4303 times
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- 5" to 5-1/2" blades - Bridgeport and Irwin in the middle
- image.jpg (86.13 KiB) Viewed 4303 times
Ford GPW 76344 DOD 11/42 Built in Richmond, CA
- Tin Medic
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1
I will have to re-evaluate several screwdrivers when I get home.d42jeep wrote:Wingnutt, thanks for posting the section about the 1/2" plus or minus.
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- daveus6
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1
I love that Bonney screwdriver. Stanley Victor had a very similar handle.mudbox wrote:Here are some 5-1/2" drivers I've been hanging onto for my GMTK.
I'm up in the air as to which to permanently put in the kit.
Based on the spec, type 1 (cabinet tip), the Cornwell driver fits best. Agree?
Top to bottom in the pic:
Cornwell
Vlchek
Bonney
-Jason
I'd love a V22 1/4 drive handle even better!
- mudbox
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1
I never noticed the similarities before, but you're right. User TinMedic has some nice Stanley-Victor drivers. He posted pics HERE.daveus6 wrote:Stanley Victor had a very similar handle.
-Jason
- Silly's MB
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1
Now here are some Irwin screwdrivers from a 1942 wholesale catalogue, I dont think I have ever seen any of these 'Irwinoid' handled drivers. The Irwin perfect pattern with the nut on the shaft looks like the one in the GP and Staff car illustrations.
Limited access.
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1
All,
Since the following comment was brought up in the Ford SNL G-540 thread
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=269171
But has relevance to the ideas being discussed here I thought I would take some license and post the pertinent information from a post from Silly's MB in that thread so here it is:
Silly's MB wrote:
"I think this may be the first wartime advertisement found for an Irwin screwdriver.
I posted it on the Federal specs screwdriver thread and made a comment about the similarity between the screwdriver in the advertisement and the GP and Staff car pictures. Wingnutt contacted me with an observation which I will post here.
"Note that the model number for the 11 inch overall length perfect handle pattern (SRP 66) in the 1942 catalog is an exact match for the model number (IAB-SRP-66) in the 1944 SNL G540. I don't think that means they all had to have the hex nut at the top of the shaft. They may have made them later without the hex nut and used the same model number. But it is interesting."
I think we may need to open our eyes up to finding some Irwin hex screwdriver shafts for early Ford vehicles (and Willys ?). The Ink stamped Irwin as we know it may not of come around until some time in 1942 unless they were being made side by side."
Henry
Since the following comment was brought up in the Ford SNL G-540 thread
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=269171
But has relevance to the ideas being discussed here I thought I would take some license and post the pertinent information from a post from Silly's MB in that thread so here it is:
Silly's MB wrote:
"I think this may be the first wartime advertisement found for an Irwin screwdriver.
I posted it on the Federal specs screwdriver thread and made a comment about the similarity between the screwdriver in the advertisement and the GP and Staff car pictures. Wingnutt contacted me with an observation which I will post here.
"Note that the model number for the 11 inch overall length perfect handle pattern (SRP 66) in the 1942 catalog is an exact match for the model number (IAB-SRP-66) in the 1944 SNL G540. I don't think that means they all had to have the hex nut at the top of the shaft. They may have made them later without the hex nut and used the same model number. But it is interesting."
I think we may need to open our eyes up to finding some Irwin hex screwdriver shafts for early Ford vehicles (and Willys ?). The Ink stamped Irwin as we know it may not of come around until some time in 1942 unless they were being made side by side."
Henry
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1
OK, so now that I brought over the relevant information from the Ford SNL G-540 thread I thought I would offer the following thought.
I am wondering if we do indeed have to find the Irwin screwdriver with the hex on the shaft for early(ier) Ford or Willys kits. I thought I recalled seeing something (here on the tool forums) that stated the block letter "Irwin" name/logo (as shown on the handle of the perfect handle screwdriver in the illustration in this 1942 catalog) is newer than the block letter "Irwin" name/logo with the interlocking W. So if I am not mistaken about the interlocking W Irwin logo being indicative of earlier manufacture then perhaps:
1.) the interlocking W Irwin ink stamped screwdrivers that, based upon the evidence (provided by Wingnutt and Fred Coldwell) in volume 5 of Lloyd White's book, we have come to accept as the "correct" Irwin scredriver for the MB tool kit are still the correct screwdrivers for MB tool kits?
2.) this Irwin catalog illustrates a screwdriver that does not exactly match the screwdriver that was actually produced (either the stamping on the handle in the illustration doesn't match the stamp that was actually placed on screwdrivers at that time or the hex feature in the illustration never went into production, or both)?
The counter to the above argument would be: presuming that this is all the same model of 6" Irwin perfect handle screwdriver it wouldn't seem to make sense for Irwin to produce the smooth shaft perfect handle screwdriver pre-war or early war, then produce the hex shaft from 1942 to possibly end of the war and even shortly thereafter and then return to the smooth shaft from then until end of production.
So one further thought... Has anyone ever seen an Irwin perfect handle with the hex as illustrated in the 1942 catalog?
Anyway. Just my $.02 for what it's worth.
Henry
I am wondering if we do indeed have to find the Irwin screwdriver with the hex on the shaft for early(ier) Ford or Willys kits. I thought I recalled seeing something (here on the tool forums) that stated the block letter "Irwin" name/logo (as shown on the handle of the perfect handle screwdriver in the illustration in this 1942 catalog) is newer than the block letter "Irwin" name/logo with the interlocking W. So if I am not mistaken about the interlocking W Irwin logo being indicative of earlier manufacture then perhaps:
1.) the interlocking W Irwin ink stamped screwdrivers that, based upon the evidence (provided by Wingnutt and Fred Coldwell) in volume 5 of Lloyd White's book, we have come to accept as the "correct" Irwin scredriver for the MB tool kit are still the correct screwdrivers for MB tool kits?
2.) this Irwin catalog illustrates a screwdriver that does not exactly match the screwdriver that was actually produced (either the stamping on the handle in the illustration doesn't match the stamp that was actually placed on screwdrivers at that time or the hex feature in the illustration never went into production, or both)?
The counter to the above argument would be: presuming that this is all the same model of 6" Irwin perfect handle screwdriver it wouldn't seem to make sense for Irwin to produce the smooth shaft perfect handle screwdriver pre-war or early war, then produce the hex shaft from 1942 to possibly end of the war and even shortly thereafter and then return to the smooth shaft from then until end of production.
So one further thought... Has anyone ever seen an Irwin perfect handle with the hex as illustrated in the 1942 catalog?
Anyway. Just my $.02 for what it's worth.
Henry
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1
Henry I have just bumped up one of my threads on Irwin with some Irwin information.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=245659&p=1572523#p1572523
My thought would be that the Hex would of been introduced circa 1940 (guess) and was changed back in 1942 with the large military contracts. It would be less expensive to produce the screwdriver without the hex as it would require less accurate finishing and also it was not a military requirement as shown in the Willys drawing.
Irwin seemed to use several logos at the same time so I would not put to much pressure on the logo, also the picture is more representative than accurate. The contemporary newspaper articles show several designs of 'Irwin'.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=245659&p=1572523#p1572523
My thought would be that the Hex would of been introduced circa 1940 (guess) and was changed back in 1942 with the large military contracts. It would be less expensive to produce the screwdriver without the hex as it would require less accurate finishing and also it was not a military requirement as shown in the Willys drawing.
Irwin seemed to use several logos at the same time so I would not put to much pressure on the logo, also the picture is more representative than accurate. The contemporary newspaper articles show several designs of 'Irwin'.
Limited access.
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1
Roger,
Thank you for the bump of the Irwin thread. Now it all makes sense. Yes, your explanation regarding the hex feature makes perfect logical sense to me especially since I am a big proponent of considering the additional criteria of "does what we are observing also make sense from a manufacturing logistics and cost saving perspective". And clearly your statement fits that criteria to a tee. Understood about the Irwin logo differences not being a definitive identifier for manufacturing time period.
Oh and... By the way... In answer to my question above, I guess someone has indeed seen an Irwin perfect handle screwdriver with the hex feature.
Thanks again for your reply. I greatly appreciate it.
Henry
Thank you for the bump of the Irwin thread. Now it all makes sense. Yes, your explanation regarding the hex feature makes perfect logical sense to me especially since I am a big proponent of considering the additional criteria of "does what we are observing also make sense from a manufacturing logistics and cost saving perspective". And clearly your statement fits that criteria to a tee. Understood about the Irwin logo differences not being a definitive identifier for manufacturing time period.
Oh and... By the way... In answer to my question above, I guess someone has indeed seen an Irwin perfect handle screwdriver with the hex feature.
Thanks again for your reply. I greatly appreciate it.
Henry
- Wingnutt
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1228)
Per Cliff request, here is an enlarged version of Table 1 specs and the Tolerances table that follows it.
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- Hartofoak
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Re: 1939 Fed Specs: Electricians Screwdrivers (41-S-1225, -1228)
Many thanks Greg. I'll continue my quest for a correct screwdriver with USA markings. Here again are my more recent attempts:
MB 298781 DoD: est. 01-19-44 (ex British Army 1958)
T1 Trailer: "Transportation Equipment Co."
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T1 Trailer: "Transportation Equipment Co."
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