WWII jacks?
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WWII jacks?
Can anybody tell me if both these jacks are WWII?
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Last edited by 65shelby on Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- pjones
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Re: WWII jacks?
The one on the right is correct. Round cup, rectangular base and round opening for LNW.
phil
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- Wingnutt
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Re: WWII jacks?
65shelby,
I don't disagree with Phil, but I wouldn't discard the jack on the left if I were you!
It might very well be a Willys MA jack.
I'd be very interested in seeing additional photographs, including the bottom of the base. And I'd be very interested in any closer inspection notes you could provide in comparing the detailed physical characteristics of the two jacks (dimensions of every piece-part, shapes of rivets, etc), including the finish. Except for the mouth on the handle receptacle (left: flat, right: round), are they identical? They certainly look it from 'here'.
Where did you acquire them? (Not to be nosy, but to get an idea if the source could lend some context to the possibility.)
Did they come with handles?
My rationale:
The Willys MA had a screw jack (A-653) and a jack handle (A-654) supplied by Spun Steel, with Spun Steel part numbers 200W-G (jack) and 200W-Q (jack handle), respectively. No known photographs or specimens of a Willys MA A-654 / Spun Steel 200W-Q jack handle exists. We don't know, therefore, whether the business end was round bar stock, or whether it was flat bar stock, as implied by that very convincing receptacle on that very convincing jack on the left. Flat was not uncommon for that era.
The Willys MB also had a screw jack, of course, also supplied by Spun Steel. Spun Steel did not change its part number (200W-G), but Willys did, to A-1240.
The jack on the right appears to be a Willys MB A-1240 / Spun Steel 200W-G screw jack, as Phil noted.
Unlike the No. 200W-G screw jack that Spun Steel supplied to Willys as MA screw jack A-653, the No. 200W-G screw jack that Spun Steel supplied to Willys as MB screw jack A-1240 did not come with a jack handle. As everyone knows, the butt end of the Lug Wrench (A-348) was used, as a secondary purpose to its original purpose (removing lug nuts), as the handle for the Willys MB jack.
Because the Spun Steel part number did not change during Willys MB production, most collectors believe that the Spun Steel jack supplied to Willys with that same part number during Willys MA production is the same jack. This theory holds that either Willys or the QMC noticed that the A-348 Lug Wrench was 9/16" in diameter, and could, therefore, serve as a jack handle, fitting the existing 200W-G handle receptacle, which just happened to also be 9/16" in diameter, making the A-654 / Spun Steel 200W-Q handle obsolete.
There is an alternate theory, motivated specifically by the Willys screw jack part number change (from A-653 to A-1240) in moving from MA to MB production and the basic construction of a Spun Steel screw jack.
In this theory, the MA screw jack A-653 supplied by Spun Steel No. 200W-G always had a flat bar stock receptacle to fit a handle (MA A-654 / Spun Steel 200W-Q) that had a flat bar stock end. In this theory, the MB screw jack was given a different part number (A-1240) than the MA screw jack (A-653) specifically because it had a different handle receptacle, one that was 9/16" round in shape specifically to accommodate the end of an A-348 Lug Wrench.
This change would've been very easy for Spun Steel to make. The handle receptacle is a separate part, attached around the tube of the screw jack. Nothing on the receptacle would've had to change except for the mouth of the receptacle itself. In fact, it's worth emphasizing in support of this theory that a change in the shape of the receptacle has no impact on any other part of a Spun Steel screw jack. Not the base, the tube, the screw, the cup, or even the switch mechanism.
Opponents of this theory cite the Spun Steel part number not changing. Proponents don't find it at all unusual for a jack maker to retain the model number on a jack for which one minor feature (the shape of the handle receptacle) has been changed. As note above, everything else about the jack would be the same. Your two side by side jacks are excellent examples of that point. The jacks look identical except for the shape of the handle receptacles. Spun Steel certainly would have known which 200W-G jack to ship to Willys to fulfill A-1240 orders (9/16" round receptacle) and which to ship to other customers still using a flat bar stock 200W-Q handle. Since most lug wrenches are made of industry standard 9/16" round bar stock, maybe Spun Steel had a heyday telling its commerical customers they didn't need the old handle. Or maybe they started shipping out their 200W-G jacks with round stock 200W-Q handles that doubled as lug wrenches.
Regardless of the commercial permutations of Spun Steel's screw jack, your jack is a very convincing potential example of a potential Willys MA jack.
(EDITED to remove erroneuos information about CJ-2A jacks.)
I don't disagree with Phil, but I wouldn't discard the jack on the left if I were you!
It might very well be a Willys MA jack.
I'd be very interested in seeing additional photographs, including the bottom of the base. And I'd be very interested in any closer inspection notes you could provide in comparing the detailed physical characteristics of the two jacks (dimensions of every piece-part, shapes of rivets, etc), including the finish. Except for the mouth on the handle receptacle (left: flat, right: round), are they identical? They certainly look it from 'here'.
Where did you acquire them? (Not to be nosy, but to get an idea if the source could lend some context to the possibility.)
Did they come with handles?
My rationale:
The Willys MA had a screw jack (A-653) and a jack handle (A-654) supplied by Spun Steel, with Spun Steel part numbers 200W-G (jack) and 200W-Q (jack handle), respectively. No known photographs or specimens of a Willys MA A-654 / Spun Steel 200W-Q jack handle exists. We don't know, therefore, whether the business end was round bar stock, or whether it was flat bar stock, as implied by that very convincing receptacle on that very convincing jack on the left. Flat was not uncommon for that era.
The Willys MB also had a screw jack, of course, also supplied by Spun Steel. Spun Steel did not change its part number (200W-G), but Willys did, to A-1240.
The jack on the right appears to be a Willys MB A-1240 / Spun Steel 200W-G screw jack, as Phil noted.
Unlike the No. 200W-G screw jack that Spun Steel supplied to Willys as MA screw jack A-653, the No. 200W-G screw jack that Spun Steel supplied to Willys as MB screw jack A-1240 did not come with a jack handle. As everyone knows, the butt end of the Lug Wrench (A-348) was used, as a secondary purpose to its original purpose (removing lug nuts), as the handle for the Willys MB jack.
Because the Spun Steel part number did not change during Willys MB production, most collectors believe that the Spun Steel jack supplied to Willys with that same part number during Willys MA production is the same jack. This theory holds that either Willys or the QMC noticed that the A-348 Lug Wrench was 9/16" in diameter, and could, therefore, serve as a jack handle, fitting the existing 200W-G handle receptacle, which just happened to also be 9/16" in diameter, making the A-654 / Spun Steel 200W-Q handle obsolete.
There is an alternate theory, motivated specifically by the Willys screw jack part number change (from A-653 to A-1240) in moving from MA to MB production and the basic construction of a Spun Steel screw jack.
In this theory, the MA screw jack A-653 supplied by Spun Steel No. 200W-G always had a flat bar stock receptacle to fit a handle (MA A-654 / Spun Steel 200W-Q) that had a flat bar stock end. In this theory, the MB screw jack was given a different part number (A-1240) than the MA screw jack (A-653) specifically because it had a different handle receptacle, one that was 9/16" round in shape specifically to accommodate the end of an A-348 Lug Wrench.
This change would've been very easy for Spun Steel to make. The handle receptacle is a separate part, attached around the tube of the screw jack. Nothing on the receptacle would've had to change except for the mouth of the receptacle itself. In fact, it's worth emphasizing in support of this theory that a change in the shape of the receptacle has no impact on any other part of a Spun Steel screw jack. Not the base, the tube, the screw, the cup, or even the switch mechanism.
Opponents of this theory cite the Spun Steel part number not changing. Proponents don't find it at all unusual for a jack maker to retain the model number on a jack for which one minor feature (the shape of the handle receptacle) has been changed. As note above, everything else about the jack would be the same. Your two side by side jacks are excellent examples of that point. The jacks look identical except for the shape of the handle receptacles. Spun Steel certainly would have known which 200W-G jack to ship to Willys to fulfill A-1240 orders (9/16" round receptacle) and which to ship to other customers still using a flat bar stock 200W-Q handle. Since most lug wrenches are made of industry standard 9/16" round bar stock, maybe Spun Steel had a heyday telling its commerical customers they didn't need the old handle. Or maybe they started shipping out their 200W-G jacks with round stock 200W-Q handles that doubled as lug wrenches.
Regardless of the commercial permutations of Spun Steel's screw jack, your jack is a very convincing potential example of a potential Willys MA jack.
(EDITED to remove erroneuos information about CJ-2A jacks.)
Last edited by Wingnutt on Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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- Mark Tombleson
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Re: WWII jacks?
I can only agree with Wingnutt at this point in time.
I sure would like to see a photo from the top of the left jack's up/down switch. Is it rectangular or oval?
I sure would like to see a photo from the top of the left jack's up/down switch. Is it rectangular or oval?
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- d42jeep
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Re: WWII jacks?
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- Wingnutt
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Re: WWII jacks?
Similar, but not the same, Don. It has that extra cup under the cup, for one thing. Secondly, look at the way the sleeve with the handle and up/down switch is integrated into the tube, which is in two sections. It doesn't wrap around it like the MB jack.
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Re: WWII jacks?
I've added a few more pictures. I've had them for over ten years. If I remember correctly the flat one came with a GP that I bought from the late Jim Causey or with a mighty mite that I had ten years ago. Outside of that one obvious difference, they look identical to me in every way.
- Wingnutt
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Re: WWII jacks?
Perfect additional shots. Thanks for taking the time to do that, and for the idea to take them together. I agree; they look unmistakably identical but for the mouth of the handle receptacle. I feel even more confident now that what you have there is a Spun Steel 200W-G A-653 and a Spun Steel 200W-G A-1240.
The GP reference is interesting. It may connote the use of this jack with its own organic handle (200W-Q) in the Ford runoff vehicle, like the MA, but I know next to nothing about GP's, so that could be nonsense.
Did the MA jack come with a handle do you recall?
The GP reference is interesting. It may connote the use of this jack with its own organic handle (200W-Q) in the Ford runoff vehicle, like the MA, but I know next to nothing about GP's, so that could be nonsense.
Did the MA jack come with a handle do you recall?
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- Chuck Lutz
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Re: WWII jacks?
I am of the opinion that the second jack is an MA jack myself. I had a chance to look at some pics I have of some jacks and noticed that TWO pics that were identified by someone ELSE as being for the "CJ" are slightly different.
It would be best to ask the CJ boys what they think, but the two are slightly DIFFERENT.
1) Note that in the photos above, the base plates are essentially EXACTLY alike.
2) Note in the photos below that the strengthening ridgea on the long ends are DIFFERENT>
Ergo, if in fact the jack in the pics below is for a CJ, the difference I have noted and the fact that the one above has a base that is the same as the A-1240 gives me the opinion that the jack picturted above is an MA jack.
It would be best to ask the CJ boys what they think, but the two are slightly DIFFERENT.
1) Note that in the photos above, the base plates are essentially EXACTLY alike.
2) Note in the photos below that the strengthening ridgea on the long ends are DIFFERENT>
Ergo, if in fact the jack in the pics below is for a CJ, the difference I have noted and the fact that the one above has a base that is the same as the A-1240 gives me the opinion that the jack picturted above is an MA jack.
Chuck Lutz
GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
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GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
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- Wingnutt
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Re: WWII jacks?
Now that additional photos have been provided, and Chuck has 'thirded' the motion, are you ready to confirm your 'second,' Mark? Or are you still contemplating?
By the way, in the 'credit-where-credit-is-due' category, the first time I ever saw the alternate theory (of the Spun Steel 200W-G jack having a flat handle for the MA, then being re-designed and modified to use the end of the A-348 Lug Wrench for the MB jack, and Willys changing their number from A-653 to A-1240 due to that change) proposed, by Luca, was here: viewtopic.php?p=1375561#p1375561.
By the way, in the 'credit-where-credit-is-due' category, the first time I ever saw the alternate theory (of the Spun Steel 200W-G jack having a flat handle for the MA, then being re-designed and modified to use the end of the A-348 Lug Wrench for the MB jack, and Willys changing their number from A-653 to A-1240 due to that change) proposed, by Luca, was here: viewtopic.php?p=1375561#p1375561.
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- Chuck Lutz
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Re: WWII jacks?
One more thing to remember....the A-653 required a HANDLE....which has a Spun Steel Number close to that of the jack itself and they still needed a lug wrench....when Willys went to the A-1240, there was no need for the HANDLE since the A-348 lug wrench was used to raise/lower the A-1240....
For some reason Willys ordered jacks that required the HANDLE again after the war....but this might be due to the different sized lug nuts on vehicles that jack might be issued with...the CJ boys will know more about that I'm sure.
For some reason Willys ordered jacks that required the HANDLE again after the war....but this might be due to the different sized lug nuts on vehicles that jack might be issued with...the CJ boys will know more about that I'm sure.
Chuck Lutz
GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947
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- Wingnutt
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Re: WWII jacks?
Remember? Chuck, the MA handle, which was WO A-654 and Spun Steel 200W-Q, and the switch to the secondary use of the other end of the A-348 lug wrench as a handle for the MB, was cited in my first post several times. And I've asked 65shelby if he might have it somewhere.
As for the CJ-2A, I believe it was initially furnished with the same jack and lug wrench as the MB. I believe the switch to 13/16" lug nuts came later. Joe or Fred can confirm that. If that is indeed the reason for the return to a mated flat bar stock handle, like the MA, I've always wondered why a change in lug nut size would require a change in the diameter of the rod itself, though. The hex openings were 47/64" or 25/32" on MB lug wrenches. Seems like you could accommodate a slighter larger hex opening without going to a larger rod stock, but that's just back of the envelope calculations. I haven't really looked at it or thought about it harder than that.
As for the CJ-2A, I believe it was initially furnished with the same jack and lug wrench as the MB. I believe the switch to 13/16" lug nuts came later. Joe or Fred can confirm that. If that is indeed the reason for the return to a mated flat bar stock handle, like the MA, I've always wondered why a change in lug nut size would require a change in the diameter of the rod itself, though. The hex openings were 47/64" or 25/32" on MB lug wrenches. Seems like you could accommodate a slighter larger hex opening without going to a larger rod stock, but that's just back of the envelope calculations. I haven't really looked at it or thought about it harder than that.
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- Fred Coldwell
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Re: WWII jacks?
Hi Chuck:Chuck Lutz wrote: . . . For some reason Willys ordered jacks that required the HANDLE again after the war....but this might be due to the different sized lug nuts on vehicles that jack might be issued with...the CJ boys will know more about that I'm sure.
The photo you posted of the green Spun Steel jack with the flat bar handle is intriguing. It's double-ribbed base suggests it might have a slightly greater capacity than the 1-1/2 ton rating of the Spun Steel #200 W-G jack. And it nicely illustrates why some Spun Steel jacks came with their own handle. But it is not a CJ-2A jack nor an early CJ-3A jack. Here are the facts:
After WW II, the CJ-2A continued to use the A-1240 jack throughout its entire production run and into the beginning of the CJ-3A production run. After CJ-2A serial number 168642 the lug nut size increased from 3/4" (as used on the MB) to 13/16". The part number for the CJ-2A wheel nut socket wrench changed from A-348 (for the 3/4" lug nut) to 645609 (for the 13/16" lug nut), but use of the A-1240 jack did not change; instead, it continued uninterrupted. So I can only agree with Wingnutt that the diameter of the handle on the 645609 lug nut wrench was identical to that on the earlier A-348 lug nut wrench. Both lug nut wrenches served as the round handle for the A-1240 jack (Spun Steel #200W-G) used with the CJ-2A and early CJ-3A civilian jeeps.
Nevertheless, the photo you posted of the green Spun Steel jack adds support to the idea the MA jack handle A-654 (Spun Steel #200W-Q) for the A-653 jack was cut from a piece of flat bar stock. Thanks for posting the photo!
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Fred Coldwell
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- Wingnutt
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Re: WWII jacks?
Thanks for starightening that out, Fred.
The most intriguing thing to me now about that kelly green jack, whereever it may be, and whoever may own it, is the handle.
Regardless of the different base, that handle receptacle looks the same as the handle receptacle on 65shelby's jack. Now that we have a much better looking candidate for an MA jack than the kelly green jack photo that has been floating around, and it appears identical in every way, including finish and condition, to the A-1240 jack right next to it, except for the receptacle, I think there's a pretty good possibility that underneath all that kelly green in the kelly green jack photo is an MA handle. We couldn't make that leap before. With 65shelby's MA jack, I think maybe we can.
Interesting angle, Fred. Judging only by QMC ES 422-C, the next military vehicle jack up in tonnage capacity was the 41-J-72, a 3-ton jack, and it was a bottle (hydraulic) jack. I wonder if this kelly green jack - which seems identical to the MA-type 200W-G in every way except for the base - isn't a commerical version of similar vintage. Or if perhaps they had experimented with multiple bases in the pre-production run-off vehicle days.Fred Coldwell wrote:It's double-ribbed base suggests it might have a slightly greater capacity than the 1-1/2 ton rating of the Spun Steel #200 W-G jack.
The most intriguing thing to me now about that kelly green jack, whereever it may be, and whoever may own it, is the handle.
Regardless of the different base, that handle receptacle looks the same as the handle receptacle on 65shelby's jack. Now that we have a much better looking candidate for an MA jack than the kelly green jack photo that has been floating around, and it appears identical in every way, including finish and condition, to the A-1240 jack right next to it, except for the receptacle, I think there's a pretty good possibility that underneath all that kelly green in the kelly green jack photo is an MA handle. We couldn't make that leap before. With 65shelby's MA jack, I think maybe we can.
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- Joe Friday
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Re: WWII jacks?
Perhaps it is the camera, or the computer monitor, but that is not the same KELLY green from the Spun steel jacks for Willys that I have seen
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