Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification
- Wingnutt
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Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification
There are several threads here on the G on the subject of hip roof cantilevered toolboxes. Most of them are of the ‘look what I found’ variety, accompanied by queries for information. They go back several years. They always seem to elicit some reply about them being used in WWII by aircraft mechanics, but most of the boxes found are obviously post-war boxes, bearing data plates with data (MIL-C-XXX numbers, zip codes, etc) that identify them as 50’s, 60’s and even 70’s vintage. One of the problems is that we have no definitive substantiation of what constitutes a wartime box of this type, and what distinguishes a wartime box of this type from a post-war box of the same type (if it doesn’t have dead give-away data plates). Another problem is that these threads are scattered all over the place and not easy to find by subject.
I am starting this thread to gather some of the examples together in one place for discussion. (If in the meantime someone finds a definitive guide elsewhere, great.)
Exhibit A is this photo from 1943 posted by G503 member Silly’s MB and marked up by me to illustrate some remarks.
Remarks:
I think this is a Kennedy box. Direct your attention to the red circle near the squatting mechanic’s hand. Notice that the shape of the indent located there is triangular. The triangle has rounded corners, but it is clearly triangular in shape. Now look at the red oval. That’s the handle at the top of the box, with that side of the lid – which holds the handle and the clasp – flipped all the way open. You can’t actually see much of the handle, just the hint of a dark shape. What you can see are two gleaming metallic rings. My hunch is that the original handle (probably leather) is either gone or is badly deteriorated, and that whatever is hanging off those rings by way of a handle is the remainder or something improvised. The important thing is the configuration of those rings relative to the mounting.
The following photos are of a collected box posted by G503 member pintelhook11over.
Based on the 1943 photo and the features I have noted above, I think pintelhook11over is the proud owner of a vintage WW2 Kennedy aircraft mechanics’ box. Notice the handle mount type that wants a handle with rings on each end. Notice the triangular indent on the inside of the sides of the box near the peak.
For other views and further confirmation, here are some photos from an identical box currently being offered on ePay:
I am starting this thread to gather some of the examples together in one place for discussion. (If in the meantime someone finds a definitive guide elsewhere, great.)
Exhibit A is this photo from 1943 posted by G503 member Silly’s MB and marked up by me to illustrate some remarks.
Remarks:
I think this is a Kennedy box. Direct your attention to the red circle near the squatting mechanic’s hand. Notice that the shape of the indent located there is triangular. The triangle has rounded corners, but it is clearly triangular in shape. Now look at the red oval. That’s the handle at the top of the box, with that side of the lid – which holds the handle and the clasp – flipped all the way open. You can’t actually see much of the handle, just the hint of a dark shape. What you can see are two gleaming metallic rings. My hunch is that the original handle (probably leather) is either gone or is badly deteriorated, and that whatever is hanging off those rings by way of a handle is the remainder or something improvised. The important thing is the configuration of those rings relative to the mounting.
The following photos are of a collected box posted by G503 member pintelhook11over.
Based on the 1943 photo and the features I have noted above, I think pintelhook11over is the proud owner of a vintage WW2 Kennedy aircraft mechanics’ box. Notice the handle mount type that wants a handle with rings on each end. Notice the triangular indent on the inside of the sides of the box near the peak.
For other views and further confirmation, here are some photos from an identical box currently being offered on ePay:
Last edited by Wingnutt on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Wingnutt
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification
Now, here are some photos of toolboxes from a WWII AAF re-enactors site.
The hip roof cantilevered toolbox (second box from left) is clearly a Kennedy (it has the triangular indent), but I have some doubts about it being wartime vintage. The handle and handle mounting is clearly NOT the same as the box in the 1943 photograph, pintelhook11over’s box, or the box currently for sale on ePay.
In fact, the handle and handle mounting on the Kennedy box on the re-enactor’s site is much more like, if not exactly identical to, the handle and handle mounting on this Kennedy box here…
…which is owned by G503 member ghengus, and bears a 1964 data plate.
From all of the above, we can ascertain that at some point between 1943 and 1964, Kennedy changed their handle and handle mounting, from leather outer and free-swinging rings to steel and clamped. When? is the question. Before 1945?
The Kennedy box on the WWII AAF re-enactors site looks older than ghengus’s, which has edges and corners that seem more rounded, but that handle does not match the only proven vintage examplar we have (1943 photo) and could be a late 40’s or 50’s model.
The hip roof cantilevered toolbox (second box from left) is clearly a Kennedy (it has the triangular indent), but I have some doubts about it being wartime vintage. The handle and handle mounting is clearly NOT the same as the box in the 1943 photograph, pintelhook11over’s box, or the box currently for sale on ePay.
In fact, the handle and handle mounting on the Kennedy box on the re-enactor’s site is much more like, if not exactly identical to, the handle and handle mounting on this Kennedy box here…
…which is owned by G503 member ghengus, and bears a 1964 data plate.
From all of the above, we can ascertain that at some point between 1943 and 1964, Kennedy changed their handle and handle mounting, from leather outer and free-swinging rings to steel and clamped. When? is the question. Before 1945?
The Kennedy box on the WWII AAF re-enactors site looks older than ghengus’s, which has edges and corners that seem more rounded, but that handle does not match the only proven vintage examplar we have (1943 photo) and could be a late 40’s or 50’s model.
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- Wingnutt
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification
Exhibit B is this image of a Harry Marcus advertisement dated 1944, also posted by Silly’s MB, also marked up by me to illustrate some remarks.
The ad shows a Simonsen “Series 400” hip roof cantilevered toolbox. While the ad is for a civilian model, it also talks about US Air Corps and Army Engineer contracts. For me, the implication that these are the same style and construction of toolboxes provided to the military is unmistakable.
Notice that the indent is circular.
Notice also that the handle and handle mounting on a wartime vintage Simonsen box is not the same as the handle and handle mounting on a wartime vintage Kennedy box. The handle itself is uniform (we can’t ascertain if it’s steel or not from the advertisement illustration, but it looks like steel to me), and the ends look as if they are held in place by some other kind of mount. Hard to see exactly, but it’s certainly not elevated pins for freely swiveling rings.
The following photos are of a collected box posted by Silly’s MB.
Even if the box had no decal, it can be identified as a Simonsen by the circular indent. It certainly looks like an identical example of the box in the 1944 advertisement. The handle on the box has clearly been added at some later date. It doesn’t look like it moves. It looks to me as if the original mountings are still on the box. The question is, do they look like the mountings for the type of handle depicted in the 1944 ad?
Also, note that the tray compartments don't match.
The ad shows a Simonsen “Series 400” hip roof cantilevered toolbox. While the ad is for a civilian model, it also talks about US Air Corps and Army Engineer contracts. For me, the implication that these are the same style and construction of toolboxes provided to the military is unmistakable.
Notice that the indent is circular.
Notice also that the handle and handle mounting on a wartime vintage Simonsen box is not the same as the handle and handle mounting on a wartime vintage Kennedy box. The handle itself is uniform (we can’t ascertain if it’s steel or not from the advertisement illustration, but it looks like steel to me), and the ends look as if they are held in place by some other kind of mount. Hard to see exactly, but it’s certainly not elevated pins for freely swiveling rings.
The following photos are of a collected box posted by Silly’s MB.
Even if the box had no decal, it can be identified as a Simonsen by the circular indent. It certainly looks like an identical example of the box in the 1944 advertisement. The handle on the box has clearly been added at some later date. It doesn’t look like it moves. It looks to me as if the original mountings are still on the box. The question is, do they look like the mountings for the type of handle depicted in the 1944 ad?
Also, note that the tray compartments don't match.
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- Wingnutt
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification
A note on tray compartments, in general.
I don't think we're going to be able to use them for vintage identification. They all have two uppers, one on each side, for long tools, with a separator, and one with a lid. The lower trays again, one on each side, seem to have been offered in a variety of compartment size configurations that defy model and date. I'm not going to re-post images, but if you look back and compare them, you'll see what I mean...
We can't see the 1943 Kennedy examplar's compartments, unfortnately.
Pintelhook's WWII Kennedy box has 4 small and 1 medium compartment, cattycorner from each other.
The WWII Kennedy box on ePay has 4 small and 1 medium, mirror-image opposite from each other.
The probably post-war (or perhaps late war) re-enactor site Kennedy box has 3 small and 1 medium, mirror-image opposite each other.
The 1944 Simonsen examplar has 2 small on either side of a medium, mirror-image opposite from each other.
Silly's MB Simonsen has 4 small and 1 medium, mirror-image opposite from each other.
No other examples yet.
I don't think we're going to be able to use them for vintage identification. They all have two uppers, one on each side, for long tools, with a separator, and one with a lid. The lower trays again, one on each side, seem to have been offered in a variety of compartment size configurations that defy model and date. I'm not going to re-post images, but if you look back and compare them, you'll see what I mean...
We can't see the 1943 Kennedy examplar's compartments, unfortnately.
Pintelhook's WWII Kennedy box has 4 small and 1 medium compartment, cattycorner from each other.
The WWII Kennedy box on ePay has 4 small and 1 medium, mirror-image opposite from each other.
The probably post-war (or perhaps late war) re-enactor site Kennedy box has 3 small and 1 medium, mirror-image opposite each other.
The 1944 Simonsen examplar has 2 small on either side of a medium, mirror-image opposite from each other.
Silly's MB Simonsen has 4 small and 1 medium, mirror-image opposite from each other.
No other examples yet.
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- Hartofoak
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification
Excellent post from both yourself Wingnutt and from SillysMB. Great photo and advert. Came across this post in the Garage Journal site it has examples of all our boxes!
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/show ... p?t=169151" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/show ... p?t=169151" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
MB 298781 DoD: est. 01-19-44 (ex British Army 1958)
T1 Trailer: "Transportation Equipment Co."
MVMTS toolboxes & tools
T1 Trailer: "Transportation Equipment Co."
MVMTS toolboxes & tools
- lucakiki
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification
What can I say,Wingnutt? Your dissertation is as factual as they come, and might well be considered a pattern that all should follow.
I cannot but compare your approach with some other person's approach,unavoidably, but since I am sure that the other readers have done the same on their own,I will not waste bandwith with this kind of considerations.
Thank you very much, wholeheartedly.
I cannot but compare your approach with some other person's approach,unavoidably, but since I am sure that the other readers have done the same on their own,I will not waste bandwith with this kind of considerations.
Thank you very much, wholeheartedly.
Luca
WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...
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__________________________________________
WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...
__________________________________________
_____________________________________________
__________________________________________
- Silly's MB
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification
Thanks Wingnut for combining the threads making it easier to follow and also Hartofoak for that other excellent link.
I have a few observations that I would like to make.
This modern day photo of the 1944 crash scene. I believe that this is a Simonsen box because I think I can see the impressed circle (circled) and also the shape of the lid edge is more rounded (In the square) than the Kennedy.
I have a few observations that I would like to make.
This modern day photo of the 1944 crash scene. I believe that this is a Simonsen box because I think I can see the impressed circle (circled) and also the shape of the lid edge is more rounded (In the square) than the Kennedy.
Limited access.
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
- Silly's MB
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Simonsen Handle
I believe that the handle shown in the 1944 advert is a metal handle and would not of fitted to the attachment on my toolbox.
I believe mine had the leather handle with rings attached. I would guess with the very little evidence so far that the initial orders would of had the leather and ring handles but these were a weak link and the later war orders were upgraded to the metal handle and socket bracket.Limited access.
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
- Silly's MB
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Compartments
My Simonsen also has several extra divisions in the compartment which look like they are for sockets.
The trays on the Simonsen are also supported on straight brackets and the Kennedy seems to have at least 1 angled bracket.
A pretty basic difference but I thought I would bring it up.Limited access.
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
1942 August Willys MB
Complete MVMTS 100% sourced in the ETO
Empty vessels make the most noise .......
- Gordon_M
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And another one : Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identificati
Thanks to Wingnutt for his input already on this.
Another Type 2 Tool Case, by Hamilton Metallic Products this time, just delivered ...
Things to note; looks like a WW2 one as it has the leather handle on rings. Actually there looks to be a steel core to that handle, which wraps round brass ferrules which go over the rings, and then leather covered. A bit of web searching shows images of another restored Ham.Met. Prod. one, so not that rare. Single internal lidded socket box - some of the ones I've seen have two lidded boxes, but all of those has post-war codes / plates.
Apart from the handle ends and the central latch untidiness it is in first class order, especially internally. The previous owner inherited it from his father, who worked on US aircraft in Africa during WW2. It had a bunch of tools in it when he got it, but they were all British - many were marked with Air Ministry IDs. Unfortunately his father painted it wood -effect - hence the rather unsightly brown bits, and then he stuck a coat of NATO green on it. I'll strip it externally and will look for markings.
Another Type 2 Tool Case, by Hamilton Metallic Products this time, just delivered ...
Things to note; looks like a WW2 one as it has the leather handle on rings. Actually there looks to be a steel core to that handle, which wraps round brass ferrules which go over the rings, and then leather covered. A bit of web searching shows images of another restored Ham.Met. Prod. one, so not that rare. Single internal lidded socket box - some of the ones I've seen have two lidded boxes, but all of those has post-war codes / plates.
Apart from the handle ends and the central latch untidiness it is in first class order, especially internally. The previous owner inherited it from his father, who worked on US aircraft in Africa during WW2. It had a bunch of tools in it when he got it, but they were all British - many were marked with Air Ministry IDs. Unfortunately his father painted it wood -effect - hence the rather unsightly brown bits, and then he stuck a coat of NATO green on it. I'll strip it externally and will look for markings.
Gordon
1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer
1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer
- Wingnutt
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification
That looks unmistakably WW2 to me, Gordon, and it's cool that it's Hamilton, who is more famous here for their GMTK style boxes. Might not be rare in the big picture, but I'm pretty sure that every hip roof style we've seen collected and reported here on the G have been either Simonsen or Kennedy. Very nice find.
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- Gordon_M
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification
Thanks for your help with the ID.
Apart from later plates, zip codes, and the like, my reading of it is that there are few features - if any- unique to the basic WW2 unit. Leather handle seems to be one, but the advert above shows that it doesn't have to be a leather handle to be WW2. I don't see any of the known WW2 units that have the two internal socket box lids though.
It is a chunk of metal though, easily weighs twice as much as my smaller standard boxes empty. If one of these was full of tools I'd rather roll it than carry it.
Thanks again, and for added light relief I'll try to add an image of it in the special wood-grain camouflage that the original owner thought was a good idea;
NATO green paint may be ugly, but better than wood camo, for sure
Apart from later plates, zip codes, and the like, my reading of it is that there are few features - if any- unique to the basic WW2 unit. Leather handle seems to be one, but the advert above shows that it doesn't have to be a leather handle to be WW2. I don't see any of the known WW2 units that have the two internal socket box lids though.
It is a chunk of metal though, easily weighs twice as much as my smaller standard boxes empty. If one of these was full of tools I'd rather roll it than carry it.
Thanks again, and for added light relief I'll try to add an image of it in the special wood-grain camouflage that the original owner thought was a good idea;
NATO green paint may be ugly, but better than wood camo, for sure
Gordon
1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer
1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer
- Gordon_M
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification
Just an additional note - worth mentioning again how heavy the basic box is. I had to carry the empty box about half a mile to where I parked the car and it was heavy enough empty - I can't imagine how much this would weigh if it was full of tools.
The handle is a definite weak point, no wonder they went to all-metal handles, but frankly this thing would have been better lifted with one handle at each end and two people on the job. I'm currently using it to park all my extras from the other boxes, but it is staying in one place for now.
The handle is a definite weak point, no wonder they went to all-metal handles, but frankly this thing would have been better lifted with one handle at each end and two people on the job. I'm currently using it to park all my extras from the other boxes, but it is staying in one place for now.
Gordon
1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer
1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer
- Gordon_M
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Anyone near Hinckley, UK need one?
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=263060
That link takes you to a message I posted in the auction section, since I can't post auction links here, however I can copy an image
Interesting style. Solid handle, four sections directly opposite each other, two top trays with lids - a feature I associate with later production boxes. Anyone that can't get the link to the auction PM me, but Hinckley is too far for me to pick it up.
That link takes you to a message I posted in the auction section, since I can't post auction links here, however I can copy an image
Interesting style. Solid handle, four sections directly opposite each other, two top trays with lids - a feature I associate with later production boxes. Anyone that can't get the link to the auction PM me, but Hinckley is too far for me to pick it up.
Gordon
1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer
1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer
-
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification
I just bought the below at an online auction for $36. I'm able to id the basics: 1) A Kennedy cantilever tool box, ca. WW2; 2) The owner's name and serial number are on the box, so I can id him and the box to the 351st bomber group, 509th squadron. 3) I can even find a list of his missions/planes.
I'm hoping you might help with the following: 1) Is it a rare item? If so, where can I donate it? 2) Why would an officer have it?
Thank you!
I'm hoping you might help with the following: 1) Is it a rare item? If so, where can I donate it? 2) Why would an officer have it?
Thank you!
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