Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by Gordon_M » Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:02 am

That is certainly an improvement. You'll prefer a good black handle to a dodgy brown one, and my opinion of that box is that it is early as it has the built-in lock that most of the later ones lack. Pity about those period hooks though - I suppose you did cut them off carefully with as little damage as possible?
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by d42jeep » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:07 am

Unfortunately, the hooks weren't salvageable and were discarded. Do you have a plan for what you are going to place in your box to match the FSN?
-Don
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by Gordon_M » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:30 am

I have started to put all my Plomb WF and Plomb PWA material in my Hamilton box, haven't thought beyond that yet.
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by henry501 » Mon May 02, 2016 5:48 pm

Guys,

For easy reference is it safe to say that after all that has been posted on this thread that, given Roger's Kennedy ads posted up thread and Jason's revelation about his box and its features indicating it is possibly post war (since it matches the specs in the 1949 Kennedy ad), the one truly distinguishing feature that makes a Kennedy cantilevered tool box wartime produced is the two side catches and center lock closure versus the single draw bolt hasp and staple closure? I know a leather handle has to be present but I negate It as being singular proof of wartime manufacture since it was still being used on Kennedy boxes at least up until 1949. To me it looks like what separates wartime versus post war manufacture is the closing system as that is what changed somewhere between 1942 and 1949.

If I'm wrong please clarify.

Thanks,
Henry

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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by Gordon_M » Mon May 02, 2016 11:04 pm

Well I don't want to tell you you are wrong - but I think you are wrong .... :D

I think these closures had several variations over this period, and in my head they run in this order.

1. Centre key lock or hasp only - soon noted as not strong enough, possible because the army put a hundredweight of tools inside - so replaced by 2.
2. Centre key lock and two side catches. Strong enough but centre lock expensive, so replaced by 3.
3. Centre hasp / staple and two side catches, strong enough and cheap enough.
4. Post WW2 ( Korea? ) with riveted serial plate and usually with two socket box folding lids.

I'd guess the change from 2 to 3 took place in 42 or 43 when materials used were first reviewed to see if production could be speeded /cheapened. The change from 1 to 2 probably happened as soon as toolboxes started to fall open under excess load, could have been any time after they were first used this way.

All of the above is opinion only - no proof, but best logical case.

As for manufacturers Kennedy and Hamilton seem to have stuck with leather handles through the period, but Simonsen advert shows them using a metal handle during the war.
Last edited by Gordon_M on Wed May 04, 2016 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by mudbox » Tue May 03, 2016 5:36 am

henry501 wrote:...and Jason's revelation about his box and its features indicating it is possibly post war (since it matches the specs in the 1949 Kennedy ad)
I was thinking that the box I have was perhaps immediate post war, but then I found the images of the USN NAF box which is nearly identical except for the single lid (mine has no lid) for the top tray and the single hasp versus the addition of the 2 side catches, now I think it fits nicely for wartime production. Thoughts?
I feel like changes during the war weren't captured immediately in the images/ads of the time especially for contract production boxes versus 'consumer'.
Additionally, I could see the keyed hasp being one of the first things to go on a military contract toolbox. :?: Why would the military want a key that could be easily lost versus one of the many U.S. padlocks available to them.
Notice the 3 wide hinge knuckles on each. I think these 2 boxes show an evolution in construction with the USN box appearing later in the timeline.
Let me put the images next to each other for ease of comparison.
USN box:
Image
Mudbox: :lol:
Image
-Jason

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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by Gordon_M » Tue May 03, 2016 6:05 am

It is complicated by having at least three manufacturers, Hamilton, Kennedy, and Simonsen, but we can see at least some of the evolution. I should mention here that I have a very similarly styled S-K box too, but it is narrower, shorter, and only has a lift out tray.

A. Leather handles - can't be counted on. Simonsen seems not to have used them, other manufacturers used them right through.

B. Socket box lids - we have seen examples with none at all - and not drilled for them - one box lid, and two box lids. Worth mentioning that 'no lids' had no lid drilling, 'one lid' still was drilled to accept two lids, and of course 'two lids' were drilled for two lids as well.

C. Pressed identifiers like USN and / or riveted labels. These seem to belong to later boxes. I think so far all the boxes that had pressed identifiers on the box top had two socket box lids.

D As mentioned above, one centre latch, then lock and two catches, then hasp and two catches - I think in that order.

Guessing again, but I think we are seeing a standard 1930's toolbox that was adapted during WW2 by the addition of locks / latches and socket box lids, then finally with a pressed identifier like the USN examples. I'm happy with that scenario, the only thing that really doesn't make sense to me is the fact that they stuck with one inadequate central handle right through. This box could have been adopted fairly easily to take a fold-out handle at each end. I know one of my boxes weighs about 21 pounds empty - someone should fill a box with an appropriate selection of tools and weigh it - I'm thinking a Hundredweight is 112lbs here in the UK and that is what the thing would weigh.

Wheels and a trolley anyone ? I'll bet there is a period image out there of one of these things on wheels.
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by henry501 » Tue May 03, 2016 4:39 pm

Jason and Gordon,

Thank you both for your input. No problem with being wrong especially if my mistakes ultimately increase the collective knowledge. OK, so then if I am correctly synthesizing all that has been said, I'm still fixating on the double clasp feature. From what I have seen in this thread it still looks like the double clasp is a feature of a wartime military Kennedy box.

However, are we now moving toward saying that Kennedy boxes like Jason's are WWII military boxes and possibly of the earliest type of manufacture or... Are we saying that it is a civilian version albeit an early one and that to be WWII military the boxes have to have the side catches? And... How would all,of this jive with the photos of the Kennedy box ads that Roger posted?

Not trying to break anyone's chops and sure don't mean to be obtuse, just trying to understand the elements of a WWII military Kennedy cantilevered tool box and get a good visual reference so that I know what to look for in my flea market escapades. :D

Thanks again,
Henry

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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by henry501 » Tue May 03, 2016 9:43 pm

Roger or Greg (Silly's MB, Wingnutt),

Would either one of you repost to this thread or redirect me to the proper thread that contains the 1943 photo that starts off his thread but without the red circles that Wingnutt added to illustrate the construction points he was trying to explain. I need to try to discern from and un-edited photo what the closing features are on that box. Better yet if either of you have and even higher quality image of that photo than the Gee's attachment size limitations allow, please let me know and I'll provide my e-mail address to send it to if you would be kind enough to do so.

Thank you very much,
Henry

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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by mudbox » Wed May 04, 2016 9:29 am

Henry, here is a LINK to the largest version that I could find.
Interesting to note that it looks like there is only one lidded compartment on the box from that image.
I'm sure it's been discussed elsewhere, but that looks like an Armstrong ratchet, I can also see a 4oz hammer on the ground along with a hacksaw and some misc. screwdrivers.
Sure does look 100% like this box I found online... 2 side catches and a single hasp and staple. Notice again the 3 wide hinge knuckles.
Image
Image
-Jason

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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by Gordon_M » Wed May 04, 2016 11:13 am

It is my guess that the Mudbox one with the single hasp is the earliest one seen so far. It has single hasp, leather handle, and I think no socket box lid inside. I'd suggest this is as close as we are going to see as the box originally manufactured and picked up for use by Uncle Sam - everything else is a development of this. I'm surprised that several manufacturers make very similar boxes but we haven't run across any Patent info either.

I think all these boxes were used by the military - I just can't suggest a date for the Mudbox one without extra info, but definitely before the rest. When I mentioned USN identifiers on the lid as being late or post-war, to be clear I was talking about the embossed USN, not the painted ones.

Collecting guidelines - if you see one and it's cheap - grab it regardless.
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by henry501 » Thu May 05, 2016 12:49 am

Jason,

Thank you so very much for the link to the clear photo of the cantilevered Kennedy box. Also great observation on the lid covering one of the top trays (where the mechanics? right hand is resting). I thought I noticed that designed detail from the photo posted on this thread but your confirmation of it plus the better view of the photo in the link you provided seals the deal. Guess my old eyes aren't that old yet. :D

Gordon,

Thank you as well for the further clarification on the possible progression of the design development of these boxes as well as the collecting advise to pick one up if it is cheap. So... Given that advice I guess my acquisition of this past weekend makes both Jason and me proud owners of a couple of the earliest design of those Kennedy boxes. Yes, I will post photos of mine but for now, know that it is exactly like Jason's except that one of my top trays has the cover. I will make sure to post detailed photos of all the pertinent design elements to add to the collective knowledge base.

Thanks again for the photos, links and comments.

Henry

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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by Tom Campbell » Thu May 05, 2016 8:25 am

Guys, I'm new to the "tool box" section, but I just bought what I think is a Kennedy with two inside lids. Having learned a lot by reading the previous post, I'm going to have a closer look at my box now.

There is one thing that I noticed about my box that I have not seen mentioned. Mine has three flat reinforcing plates on the outside bottom. I - think - mine is a post war Kennedy but again, I'm just learning about what to look for. Does anybody have info on the floor reinforcement plates?

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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by Gordon_M » Thu May 05, 2016 8:27 am

I think they all have three wear strips on the bottom, maybe 1/2" wide, one centre and one near each side? Both of mine do.
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Re: Hip Roof Cantilevered Toolbox Identification

Post by Tom Campbell » Thu May 05, 2016 8:31 am

Thanks Gordon, that's exactly like mine. I guess they are NOT a distinguishing marker.


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