GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
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GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
As a recent GMTK (and a long-time edged weapons) collector, I have found this to be one of the most intriguing debates and perplexing mysteries on this forum.
The issue can be boiled down to a single question: Is it valid to put a TL-29 in your GMTK or not?
Purists say no, and argue that the TL-29 is a Signal Corps designation, for a Signal Corps knife, issued to Signal Corps linemen, that the GMTK had its own electrician’s knife with its own GSN, issued by the ORD or QMC in kits meant for motor vehicle mechanics.
Others seem to have argued that while that may be true, it’s somehow reasonable to expect that TL-29’s also ended up in GMTK’s, whether issued or by happenstance.
Neither side, however, has offered much of any evidence for either argument here on G503 as far as I have been able to find.
TM REFERENCES
1944 SNL
RAPD photos from 1944 and 1945 SNL’s showing knife with a “US ARMY” stamped scale (handle)
I have been keeping my whetstone dry on this subject while conducting some research, which I shall provide in subsequent posts. I welcome corrections, comments, questions, discussion, and anything substantive that anyone else has been able to discover.
The point of this thread is to help us attempt to definitize this tool for our collections.
The issue can be boiled down to a single question: Is it valid to put a TL-29 in your GMTK or not?
Purists say no, and argue that the TL-29 is a Signal Corps designation, for a Signal Corps knife, issued to Signal Corps linemen, that the GMTK had its own electrician’s knife with its own GSN, issued by the ORD or QMC in kits meant for motor vehicle mechanics.
Others seem to have argued that while that may be true, it’s somehow reasonable to expect that TL-29’s also ended up in GMTK’s, whether issued or by happenstance.
Neither side, however, has offered much of any evidence for either argument here on G503 as far as I have been able to find.
TM REFERENCES
1944 SNL
RAPD photos from 1944 and 1945 SNL’s showing knife with a “US ARMY” stamped scale (handle)
I have been keeping my whetstone dry on this subject while conducting some research, which I shall provide in subsequent posts. I welcome corrections, comments, questions, discussion, and anything substantive that anyone else has been able to discover.
The point of this thread is to help us attempt to definitize this tool for our collections.
Last edited by Wingnutt on Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
FINDINGS
Fact: Two companies - Ka-Bar and PAL - manufactured electrician’s knives during WWII that were modeled on the specifications of the TL-29 but seem to have been explicitly marked “U.S. ARMY”, not “TL-29”.
Opinion: I believe these knives were sold to ORD or QMC to meet 41-K-370 purposes, issued to Army mechanics (not by the Signal Corps to Signal Corps linemen). I believe that "TL-29" has become over time so analogous with "electrician's knife," due to their popularity and volume, that the military knife-collecting world (outside of G503) has lost all trace of the 41-K-370 and its more general-purpose applications in mechanics’ (vs. linemen) toolsets, to the extent where these Ka-Bar and PAL examples are now wrongly and commonly considered variants of a TL-29. This erroneous conflation has erased the distinction between the 41-K-370 and the TL-29.
Facts:
-A third company – Camillus – manufactured electrician’s knives during WWII that were modeled exactly on the specifications of the TL-29 but were sold to government customers other than the Signal Corps, including the “Army or Engrs.”, “Quartermaster," and “Marines.”
-Company specification records show that some of these knives were marked differently (“U.S.M.C.”), explicitly without the “TL-29” designation.
-No such records show marking the knives manufactured for the “Engineers” or “Quartermaster” differently
-No specimens of a Camillus electrician’s knife marked “U.S. ARMY” or “QMC” or any alternative marking have ever been collected, which is consistent with knife collecting guides (Silvey, C. Houston Price) and military knife experts (Trzaska).
Opinion: I believe it’s possible that the Camillus electrician’s knives manufactured for and sold to the Engineers and QMC were marked “TL-29” yet used to meet other (i.e., not Signal Corps) electrician’s knife purposes, and, that this has contributed to the erroneous conflation that has erased the distinction between the 41-K-370 and the TL-29.
Questions: Was one of those other purposes the GMTK? Did the QMC supply GSN 41-K-370 electrician’s knives? What else would the QMC do with electrician’s knives manufactured by Camillus but marked “TL-29”? Similarly, what kit did the Engineers’ put them in?
Fact: Two companies - Ka-Bar and PAL - manufactured electrician’s knives during WWII that were modeled on the specifications of the TL-29 but seem to have been explicitly marked “U.S. ARMY”, not “TL-29”.
Opinion: I believe these knives were sold to ORD or QMC to meet 41-K-370 purposes, issued to Army mechanics (not by the Signal Corps to Signal Corps linemen). I believe that "TL-29" has become over time so analogous with "electrician's knife," due to their popularity and volume, that the military knife-collecting world (outside of G503) has lost all trace of the 41-K-370 and its more general-purpose applications in mechanics’ (vs. linemen) toolsets, to the extent where these Ka-Bar and PAL examples are now wrongly and commonly considered variants of a TL-29. This erroneous conflation has erased the distinction between the 41-K-370 and the TL-29.
Facts:
-A third company – Camillus – manufactured electrician’s knives during WWII that were modeled exactly on the specifications of the TL-29 but were sold to government customers other than the Signal Corps, including the “Army or Engrs.”, “Quartermaster," and “Marines.”
-Company specification records show that some of these knives were marked differently (“U.S.M.C.”), explicitly without the “TL-29” designation.
-No such records show marking the knives manufactured for the “Engineers” or “Quartermaster” differently
-No specimens of a Camillus electrician’s knife marked “U.S. ARMY” or “QMC” or any alternative marking have ever been collected, which is consistent with knife collecting guides (Silvey, C. Houston Price) and military knife experts (Trzaska).
Opinion: I believe it’s possible that the Camillus electrician’s knives manufactured for and sold to the Engineers and QMC were marked “TL-29” yet used to meet other (i.e., not Signal Corps) electrician’s knife purposes, and, that this has contributed to the erroneous conflation that has erased the distinction between the 41-K-370 and the TL-29.
Questions: Was one of those other purposes the GMTK? Did the QMC supply GSN 41-K-370 electrician’s knives? What else would the QMC do with electrician’s knives manufactured by Camillus but marked “TL-29”? Similarly, what kit did the Engineers’ put them in?
Last edited by Wingnutt on Sun May 31, 2015 7:45 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
EVIDENCE
Here are some scans from The Official Price Guide to Collector’s Knives (C. Houston Price/Zalesky).
(The narrow boxes have been superimposed by me to highlight those entries.)
Note that Ka-Bar and PAL both produced electrician’s knives stamped “U.S. ARMY” on the handle. Note that Ulster and Camillus produced electrician’s knives stamped “U.S.N.” and “U.S.M.C.” on the handle. None of these knives bore any “TL-29” marking.
Note that ALL of these companies also manufactured knives with “TL-29” markings on the handle or tang.
What other explanation for the alternative markings except alternative use?
The Price knife book does not discuss the 41-K-370 and there is no indication they are even aware of such a knife with such a GSN.
I assert that this book, now in its 15th Edition, has misidentified those U.S. ARMY, U.S.N, and U.S.M.C. marked electrician's knives as TL-29's without a TL-29 mark. It's obvious they were NOT TL-29's (i.e., Signal Corps lineman's knives) at all. The Marines and Navy had no affiliation with the Signal Corps, and there is no good reason for manufacturers to make an electrician's knife for the Signal Corps and mark it "U.S. ARMY" when they were already making TL-29 marked electrician's knives for the Signal Corps and marking them "TL-29."
I don't have scans from the Silvey book, but the information is the same. No acknowledgement for electrician's knives with GSN 41-K-370 for motor vehicl mechanics or any other purposes.
Here are some scans from The Official Price Guide to Collector’s Knives (C. Houston Price/Zalesky).
(The narrow boxes have been superimposed by me to highlight those entries.)
Note that Ka-Bar and PAL both produced electrician’s knives stamped “U.S. ARMY” on the handle. Note that Ulster and Camillus produced electrician’s knives stamped “U.S.N.” and “U.S.M.C.” on the handle. None of these knives bore any “TL-29” marking.
Note that ALL of these companies also manufactured knives with “TL-29” markings on the handle or tang.
What other explanation for the alternative markings except alternative use?
The Price knife book does not discuss the 41-K-370 and there is no indication they are even aware of such a knife with such a GSN.
I assert that this book, now in its 15th Edition, has misidentified those U.S. ARMY, U.S.N, and U.S.M.C. marked electrician's knives as TL-29's without a TL-29 mark. It's obvious they were NOT TL-29's (i.e., Signal Corps lineman's knives) at all. The Marines and Navy had no affiliation with the Signal Corps, and there is no good reason for manufacturers to make an electrician's knife for the Signal Corps and mark it "U.S. ARMY" when they were already making TL-29 marked electrician's knives for the Signal Corps and marking them "TL-29."
I don't have scans from the Silvey book, but the information is the same. No acknowledgement for electrician's knives with GSN 41-K-370 for motor vehicl mechanics or any other purposes.
Last edited by Wingnutt on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
In a guest commentary called “Cutlery Classification Categories Catechism” in the “Knife Knotes 11” issue (archived) on Frank Trzaska’s website, http://www.usmilitaryknives.com, noted military knife expert Carter Rila comes close to acknowledging the TL-29 conflation phenomenon with this statement on “Branch Wide Patterns”:
“The best example of this is the LC14-B Signal Corps issue of WWII. The TL-29 Electrician’s Knife became service wide in WWII when the Marine Corps adopted it. It is now also a GSA item.”
I would have liked to see him refer to other branches of the Army as well. And staying in timeframe, I would’ve liked to see him acknowledge that the GSA grew out of the Federal Stock Number system, and that the electrician’s knife was a “GSA” (GSN, FSN) item during WWII (again, 41-K-370). I’m assuming by inference that the ORD and/or QMC may have also adopted the Signal Corps’ electrician’s knife specs (and quite possibly the same production knives) for Army general service (for example, again, the GMTK).
“The best example of this is the LC14-B Signal Corps issue of WWII. The TL-29 Electrician’s Knife became service wide in WWII when the Marine Corps adopted it. It is now also a GSA item.”
I would have liked to see him refer to other branches of the Army as well. And staying in timeframe, I would’ve liked to see him acknowledge that the GSA grew out of the Federal Stock Number system, and that the electrician’s knife was a “GSA” (GSN, FSN) item during WWII (again, 41-K-370). I’m assuming by inference that the ORD and/or QMC may have also adopted the Signal Corps’ electrician’s knife specs (and quite possibly the same production knives) for Army general service (for example, again, the GMTK).
Last edited by Wingnutt on Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
I contacted Dale Orvet, a pocket knife expert who runs the AAPK website. Neither he nor anyone else at AAPK were aware of GSN 41-K-370 or a GMTK electrician’s knife. On my behalf, he contacted Tom Williams, the Camillus Company Historian, and a former 30-year employee of Camillus Cutlery. Tom provided these fascinating scans of some company archives to Dale, who provided them to me. (I urge you to blow these up to view them better…)
The first scan is dated 1961, but entitled "Principal Items Delivered to Armed Forces during World War II from 1941 to 1946 By Camillus Cutlery Co."
Note production of “Signal C. Elec. Knives”. Note also supplying knives of unknown type to “Quartermaster” and “Army or Engr. Knives” to unspecified Army customer.
The second is a spec sheet of sorts.
Titled “Electrician’s Knife”, seemingly sub-titled “Signal Corps” dated 10/27/43, showing a progression of electrician’s knife types distinguished by three different Camillus part numbers (57A73, 57J94, and 57L49) all apparently pertaining to “Govt No.- TL-29”, although there is some ambiguity about that with the presence of the reference to “SIGNAL CORPS” and the fact that we know that TL-29 was a Signal Corps designation for electrician’s knife.
However, on the reverse of that same spec sheet (see where it says “(over)”)…
…it reads, “USES: By Signal Corps, Marines, Engineers, Quartermaster, Navy: Mostly by Signal Corps in kits with pliers assembled by us.”
Unfortunately, the quantities produced by year (1940-1945) beneath than don’t distinguish these uses, or what type/style of electrician’s knives (57A73, 57J94, 57L49).
The fourth document is very telling.
This evidences Camillus production for the USMC. It again conflates the TL-29 designation as a government and USMC part number, but note how the description specifies a USMC stamp versus a TL-29 stamp. There are no similar records preserved for the other “USES” mentioned. And, no Camillus knives bearing alternative markings have ever been collected. I think we can infer that they did not exist.
Dale’s interpretation is that it looks like Camillus sold "TL-29" marked electrician’s knives to the Engineers and the QMC during WWII. I agree with him. Again, what would they have done with them?
The first scan is dated 1961, but entitled "Principal Items Delivered to Armed Forces during World War II from 1941 to 1946 By Camillus Cutlery Co."
Note production of “Signal C. Elec. Knives”. Note also supplying knives of unknown type to “Quartermaster” and “Army or Engr. Knives” to unspecified Army customer.
The second is a spec sheet of sorts.
Titled “Electrician’s Knife”, seemingly sub-titled “Signal Corps” dated 10/27/43, showing a progression of electrician’s knife types distinguished by three different Camillus part numbers (57A73, 57J94, and 57L49) all apparently pertaining to “Govt No.- TL-29”, although there is some ambiguity about that with the presence of the reference to “SIGNAL CORPS” and the fact that we know that TL-29 was a Signal Corps designation for electrician’s knife.
However, on the reverse of that same spec sheet (see where it says “(over)”)…
…it reads, “USES: By Signal Corps, Marines, Engineers, Quartermaster, Navy: Mostly by Signal Corps in kits with pliers assembled by us.”
Unfortunately, the quantities produced by year (1940-1945) beneath than don’t distinguish these uses, or what type/style of electrician’s knives (57A73, 57J94, 57L49).
The fourth document is very telling.
This evidences Camillus production for the USMC. It again conflates the TL-29 designation as a government and USMC part number, but note how the description specifies a USMC stamp versus a TL-29 stamp. There are no similar records preserved for the other “USES” mentioned. And, no Camillus knives bearing alternative markings have ever been collected. I think we can infer that they did not exist.
Dale’s interpretation is that it looks like Camillus sold "TL-29" marked electrician’s knives to the Engineers and the QMC during WWII. I agree with him. Again, what would they have done with them?
Last edited by Wingnutt on Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
I also contacted Frank Trzaska of US Military Knives. He requested copies of my documentation; I sent him links to our most reference-rich GMTK related threads. Paraphrasing his reply, he essentially said that I have given him a lot of food for thought, that he had no knowledge of an electrician's knife with a GSN 41-K-370 designation or vehicle mechanics' utility, and he doesn't think the knife collecting world does either. He confirmed that no Camillus knives bore alternative markings to those shown in Silvey or C. Houston Price. He said that PAL and Ka-Bar records were unfortunately lost.
Here is an image of a PAL “U.S. ARMY” marked knife
Here is an of a Ka-Bar “U.S. ARMY” marked knife
Here is an image of a PAL “U.S. ARMY” marked knife
Here is an of a Ka-Bar “U.S. ARMY” marked knife
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
Additional information:
According to this spec, in 1942, the Signal Corps removed the shield from the scale (handle), going with the embossed or hot stamped handle instead. So for anyone using a WWII-ea TL-29 with a shield on the handle in their GMTK, it appears to date to prior to May 1942.
According to this spec, in 1942, the Signal Corps removed the shield from the scale (handle), going with the embossed or hot stamped handle instead. So for anyone using a WWII-ea TL-29 with a shield on the handle in their GMTK, it appears to date to prior to May 1942.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
Wing, congrats on the production a such a fine thread as this.
I list A quote from a history of the knife in question.
extract.......
“Evidenced by surplus stocks from the period, the knives were also supplied individually wrapped in waxed paper in cardboard boxes of a half dozen knives each, so were likely issued also without the pouches and pliers as needed.
They are still a standard item in many versions of different tool kits for the government. The reason they were issued in boxes was for uses by other services and in different size kits.“
Frank Trzaska.
I say....
With a well established production of TL and US Army marked bales on the manufacteres knives and the new Gov't requirement of FSN's still struggling to establish it's self with tool manufacters, it's certain no 41-K-370 knives were made during the lifetime of the FSN system.
Just my two pence worth.
Kevin UK.
I list A quote from a history of the knife in question.
extract.......
“Evidenced by surplus stocks from the period, the knives were also supplied individually wrapped in waxed paper in cardboard boxes of a half dozen knives each, so were likely issued also without the pouches and pliers as needed.
They are still a standard item in many versions of different tool kits for the government. The reason they were issued in boxes was for uses by other services and in different size kits.“
Frank Trzaska.
I say....
With a well established production of TL and US Army marked bales on the manufacteres knives and the new Gov't requirement of FSN's still struggling to establish it's self with tool manufacters, it's certain no 41-K-370 knives were made during the lifetime of the FSN system.
Just my two pence worth.
Kevin UK.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
I knew I should've kept that box!!! Sheesh...
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
I have 2 Boxes such as those in the photo posted by Kevin containing NOS Utica Wood Handled TL-29's w/o shield. Also have some K-Bar and Kutmaster Wood Handled TL-29'' The Plastic Handled TL-29 marked Electricians Knives are by Camco and Cammilus.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
Brilliant & very informative post Wingnutt. Shucks that my Camillus TL-29 shielded knife (57 J94?)maybe pre-1942! Unbelievable just how many types and manufacturers there were of such a rudimentary knife.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
How could anyone disagree? Thank you very much, Wingnutt!Hartofoak wrote:Brilliant & very informative post Wingnutt.
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Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...
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Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
Thanks, Kevin, and for the Trzaska book quote, too. He, like Dale from AAPK, was definitely of the opinion that TL-29's were sold to other services for other uses, but he seemed unaware of the 41-K-370 FSN designation or the Army GMTK. He promised to get back with me after doing some of his own research and checking with colleagues. I was ecstatic to hear from him in the first place, and I am eager to hear back.
As I said above, though, I do think there is a very strong probability that PAL and Ka-Bar were making electrician's knives for the ORD and/or QMC for 41-K-370 supply, as opposed to the Signal Corps for Signal Corps supply, hence the alternate marking ("U.S. ARMY") on handles and/or tangs. In every sense then, from their construction to their use, I would argue that these knives should be thought of as 41-K-370 knives, not TL-29's.
While it appears from Camillus records that Camillus was selling 'TL-29'-marked electrician's knives right off of their production line to the Army, Engineers, and QMC, in every sense except the Signal Corps designation marking, these knives should also be thought of as 41-K-370 knives. They were never intended for the Signal Corps and their Signal Corps marking is strictly an interesting artifact of the production process and customer (Army Engineers, QMC) efficiency.
It would be helpful to have records similar to the Camillus records from the other manufacturers, to include Utica. Or from the ORD and QMC. Without them, there is no way to ascertain definitively whether Utica or any other manufacturer was also selling 'TL-29'-marked TL-29 production knives to the ORD, QMC, or other services for other (non Signal Corps) purposes.
I would agree that no electrician's knives were made and marked that way.Kevin Monahan wrote:...it's certain no 41-K-370 knives were made during the lifetime of the FSN system.
Just my two pence worth.
As I said above, though, I do think there is a very strong probability that PAL and Ka-Bar were making electrician's knives for the ORD and/or QMC for 41-K-370 supply, as opposed to the Signal Corps for Signal Corps supply, hence the alternate marking ("U.S. ARMY") on handles and/or tangs. In every sense then, from their construction to their use, I would argue that these knives should be thought of as 41-K-370 knives, not TL-29's.
While it appears from Camillus records that Camillus was selling 'TL-29'-marked electrician's knives right off of their production line to the Army, Engineers, and QMC, in every sense except the Signal Corps designation marking, these knives should also be thought of as 41-K-370 knives. They were never intended for the Signal Corps and their Signal Corps marking is strictly an interesting artifact of the production process and customer (Army Engineers, QMC) efficiency.
It would be helpful to have records similar to the Camillus records from the other manufacturers, to include Utica. Or from the ORD and QMC. Without them, there is no way to ascertain definitively whether Utica or any other manufacturer was also selling 'TL-29'-marked TL-29 production knives to the ORD, QMC, or other services for other (non Signal Corps) purposes.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
Thanks, Hart and Luca. Hopefully, we can keep adding to this thread as we find out more information.
I told you I was leery of those shields!Hartofoak wrote:Shucks that my Camillus TL-29 shielded knife (57 J94?)maybe pre-1942!
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29
I'll trade one of my NOS wood Handled Utica TL-29 marked knives for another make NOS Wood Handled TL-29.
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