GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by lt.luke » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:55 am

Wingnutt wrote:That's a very nice grab, Steve!

Thanks to Steve's eagle eye, we also now have a photo of the second type of PAL-made wartime GMTK knife, with the scales (or handle) made of bone instead of wood, and the "US ARMY" marking on the tang instead of the scale. This knife recently sold for $107 on eBay, too steep for my blood, but I grabbed this photo. You can see how the main blade tang bears the same marking ("PAL BLADE CO.") as their other wartime production knife, with the "US ARMY" embossed in the wooden scale. Unable to emboss the uneven surface of the bone scale without ruining it (I am guessing), they used the second blade tang for the "US ARMY" marking.

I am guessing the buyer was either a GMTK guy, or a rare knife collector. This is the first one I have ever seen, and that includes several knife collecting sites.

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Granted it may be rare, but the condition isn't very good either. It would be interesting to watch an NOS version sell.


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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by Tin Medic » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:07 pm

It definately wasnt NOS, but seeing as how they dont show up hardly at all, I would have to say that it was in pretty good shape.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by lt.luke » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:12 pm

Tin Medic wrote:It definately wasnt NOS, but seeing as how they dont show up hardly at all, I would have to say that it was in pretty good shape.
Relative to the other examples of that knife, yes :), but relative to NOS, not very good shape at all, and in the knife collecting world, condition is as important as rarity. It's got corrosion/petina, wear on the scales, and possibly been sharpened. :)

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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by Tin Medic » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:33 pm

I would have bought it for that price then again I'm not looking for NOS, I like the used look.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:10 am

lt.luke wrote:Relative to the other examples of that knife
What other examples? I have never seen another example of this knife in a book, at a knife show, or on display in anyone's collection at any of the most popular knife sites.
lt.luke wrote: in the knife collecting world, condition is as important as rarity.
That depends. When you have a choice (i.e., a few examples of the same rare knife showing up every year or so), condition is a factor. When you have one example, condition becomes immediately secondary.

I think you are underestimating the rarity of this knife, luke.

Think about it like this - I have only ever seen three (3) examples of the other PAL wartime GMTK electrician's knife, the type with the "U.S. ARMY" on the wooden scale: mine, Phil Jones', and Robin's. So, if those are considered rare, this has to be considered even more rare. Perhaps it's even a once-in-a-Iifetime knife. Its scarcity - and its selling price - is due precisely to the tang marking. (The eBay seller did not know what he had, by the way. He did not even mention let alone advertise the marking in the title or the description.)

How many people collect knives? How many people inspect the tang? How many bone handled electrician's knives were used in civilian life after the war, lost, discarded and replaced by people who are not even aware that people collect knives? How many of those were these knives? How many run-of-the-mill electrician's knives are for sale and never bought on eBay? How many common TL-29's are sold for $10 or less? The best TL-29's sell for no more than $50 or so. NOS versions may sell for more. There were several bidders and I think each of them knew that this was a WWII vintage electrician's knife used by the US Army. Even if they didn't understand the difference between the Signal Corps and the Ordnance Dept (which I have found NOBODY in the knife collecting world understands), the bidding war and the escalated price indicates that they understood this knife was different than much more common WWII era electrician's knives.

I think this knife would've sold at that price in much, much worse condition, missing the bail, with a scale loose, or the blades sharpened dozens of times down to half their size.

I understand your bigger point - which seems to be that a NOS version would have sold for even more, maybe 3 or 5 times as much. But I'm not sure I agree. Since the significance is the rarity, would any of the multiple bidders who did not win it have dropped out because of its condition? Or would they have wanted what nobody else seems to have regardless of its condition?

Finally, consider that the C. Houston Price Guide (I included a scan on page 1 of this thread) values the knife at $100. There are only a few other electrician's knives valued at $100 or more - the Ka-Bar handle stamped "US ARMY" (GMTK 41-K-370)(I've only seen a photo of one and nobody here has one), Cattaraugus with shield (Signal Corps TL-29) and Keen Kutter (Signal Corps TL-29) and each of those are valued for their rarity.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:24 am

What about the TL-29s made by Utica that are stamped TL-29 packed in boxes with the nomenclature ELECTRICIANS KNIVES Stock No. 6Q60229 ?
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:47 am

Are you asking about value, Ben? If they have wooden scales, and the 'TL-29' is embossed on the wooden scale, they are wartime Signal Corps knives. 6Q60229 is the Signal Corps stock number for the electrician's knife that the Signal Corps put into dozens of different tool-sets. Price Guide says $60. I would think their NOS status (box, wrapping, etc) might fetch a little more.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:01 am

Not really the value, yes these have TL-29 stamped wood scales, what confuses me is that it has been indicated Electricians knives have two notches, Lineman's have one notch, and the factory marked packages marked "Electricians Knives 6Q022"9 are actually TL-29 Lineman's Knives.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by pjones » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:38 am

Wingnutt wrote: the Ka-Bar handle stamped "US ARMY" (GMTK 41-K-370)(I've only seen a photo of one and nobody here has one)
Greg,
Is this the style you are referring to?
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=230408&start=45

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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:40 am

Ben,

According to the books by Trzsaska, Silvey and C. Houston, the number of notches in the screwdriver/stripper blade is a vintage/era indicator - two = pre-war, one = wartime - not an indicator of use/application. The RAPD figures show a 41-K-370 with only one notch, though I am not sold on the concept as an unbreakable rule of thumb. I have seen knives with two notches in that blade and bails on the end that were 3-5/8" long, not smaller, like most pre-war TL-29's. In fact, the PAL with the "U.S. ARMY" on the tang shown above has two notches and a bail. Whether your NOS knives were destined for use by Signal Corps linemen, with TL-13-A pliers in a CS-34 pouch, or in many other Signal Corps tool-sets that ALSO included a 6Q60229 TL-29 is impossible to say.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:45 am

pjones wrote:Greg,
Is this the style you are referring to?
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=230408&start=45

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Yes. Thanks. Sorry, I was under the impression you had the PAL version. Perhaps you have a PAL and a KA-BAR and I forgot about the KA-BAR.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:53 am

Thanks, all that matters to me are that these NOS Utica have wood scales and stamped TL-29, they were a prized find for a GI in the 60's, the Commo guys seemed to also prize theTL-29 stamped knives over unmarked black plastic. I bought two boxed packs of 6 a few years ago and that is my extent of TL-29 knowledge.
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by lt.luke » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:27 pm

Wingnutt wrote:
lt.luke wrote:Relative to the other examples of that knife
What other examples? I have never seen another example of this knife in a book, at a knife show, or on display in anyone's collection at any of the most popular knife sites. This is exactly my point. the rarity undermines it's condition issues, as there simply are no other "known" examples.
lt.luke wrote: in the knife collecting world, condition is as important as rarity.
That depends. When you have a choice (i.e., a few examples of the same rare knife showing up every year or so), condition is a factor. When you have one example, condition becomes immediately secondary.

I think you are underestimating the rarity of this knife, luke.

Think about it like this - I have only ever seen three (3) examples of the other PAL wartime GMTK electrician's knife, the type with the "U.S. ARMY" on the wooden scale: mine, Phil Jones', and Robin's. So, if those are considered rare, this has to be considered even more rare. Perhaps it's even a once-in-a-Iifetime knife. Its scarcity - and its selling price - is due precisely to the tang marking. (The eBay seller did not know what he had, by the way. He did not even mention let alone advertise the marking in the title or the description.)

How many people collect knives? How many people inspect the tang? How many bone handled electrician's knives were used in civilian life after the war, lost, discarded and replaced by people who are not even aware that people collect knives? How many of those were these knives? How many run-of-the-mill electrician's knives are for sale and never bought on eBay? How many common TL-29's are sold for $10 or less? The best TL-29's sell for no more than $50 or so. NOS versions may sell for more. There were several bidders and I think each of them knew that this was a WWII vintage electrician's knife used by the US Army. Even if they didn't understand the difference between the Signal Corps and the Ordnance Dept (which I have found NOBODY in the knife collecting world understands), the bidding war and the escalated price indicates that they understood this knife was different than much more common WWII era electrician's knives.

I think this knife would've sold at that price in much, much worse condition, missing the bail, with a scale loose, or the blades sharpened dozens of times down to half their size.

I understand your bigger point - which seems to be that a NOS version would have sold for even more, maybe 3 or 5 times as much. But I'm not sure I agree. Since the significance is the rarity, would any of the multiple bidders who did not win it have dropped out because of its condition? Or would they have wanted what nobody else seems to have regardless of its condition?

Finally, consider that the C. Houston Price Guide (I included a scan on page 1 of this thread) values the knife at $100. There are only a few other electrician's knives valued at $100 or more - the Ka-Bar handle stamped "US ARMY" (GMTK 41-K-370)(I've only seen a photo of one and nobody here has one), Cattaraugus with shield (Signal Corps TL-29) and Keen Kutter (Signal Corps TL-29) and each of those are valued for their rarity.
Really interesting read and response. Thank you. I have dabbled in knife collecting, but it's been a few years. I've found this thread very interesting. I don't underestimate the rarity. I'm sure at some point, there were lots of these knives, but NOW, there's one known example. It has now sold, at auction a few ticks over what the books say it should, verifying that statement. This is one of the few times when eBay has been helpfull in establishing, or verifying the value of an item. Understand I'm jaded on eBay, as I think in contrast to an "in-person auction" it is inflated often.

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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by sincitygpw » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:14 pm

Hi All
Greg
Here's a few pictures of my knife that I would like to share.
Image

Image

Image

Image

Thanks
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Re: GMTK Electrician's Knife: 41-K-370 vs. TL-29

Post by Wingnutt » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:55 am

Dave,
That might be the handsomest GMTK knife I have ever seen. Perfect example of the type PAL made with bone instead of wood scales and with the "U.S. ARMY" stamped on the tang instead of the scale, exactly as the Price/Zelsky knife guide I posted in post #3 indicates.
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