SCREWDRIVER VARIATIONS

[Chuck Lutz]

Of the various makers of the "perfect handle" deisgn of screwdrivers, I have noticed that there are so far, two distinct types that are considered as "correct". Forget the markings for a moment, I am talking the designs.

As noted, there are TWO handle types, one has a ROUND end to the wooden slabs and the other has OVAL ends. Let's see if we can better recognize those examples that MIGHT have had an ink-stamped or impressed mfger name on the wooded handles that is no longer visible....

ROUND TYPE #1 (this is the WO drawing variety)
TOBRIN
FEDERAL
LENOX
VLCHEK

OVAL TYPE #2
IRWIN

Can you guys post any others identified by the name that meets either category? I'm not suggesting they ARE correct, but I am interested in seeing what companies made them and in which type they were produced. As you can see, both IRWIN and FEDERAL are named on the WO drawing and they are representative of BOTH of the Types.

[Roger]

Chuck you might add the Vlchek to the oval side of your descriptions. It matches the Irwin closer than the Federal. By that I mean, Looking at the end of the screwdriver it is oval shaped. The Federal is amost round.

I find it easier now to get a close idea of the manufacturer by the transition of the shaft to the handle. The Federal is more abrupt, Where the Irwin, Tobrin and now Vlchek is more gradual. The Vlchek has more of a Triangular handle.

[Chuck Lutz]

Roger...I was trying to use the shape of the WOODEN inserts as the identifying characteristic since almost all photos would be from that perspective anyway...I too have noticed that from the END-ON view there are differences as well...

HOWEVER, not that you have mentioned that the FEDERAL is almost a ROUND handle and can be seen from the end as that shape.....I have inspected the screwdriver I have that I suspect is a Federal (no shaft stamping, ROUND ends on the wooden slabs......and YES it is almost a ROUND handle shape!

Of the four I have here, the one I suspect is a FEDERAL also has the abrupt transition from shaft to handle, so another characteristic says it is of that type.

Thanks for posting those unique characteristics in detail!

Now if the owner of a TOBRIN will confirm the shact-to-handle and the shape of the handle from the end perspective, we can ID that one a bit better!

[Chuck Lutz]

Now let's try to estimate the chronological appearance of the markings on the IRWIN screwdriver just for fun! Here is one possible order in which they appeared:

IRWIN
IRWIN-U.S.ofA.
IRWIN-U.S.ofA. 41-S-1076
IRWIN-U.S.A.

Which leaves us with the stamped handle variety. Which I think reads:
IRWIN
MADE IN U.S.A.

Since the 41 type is what we know is post-war (and might be somwhere during WWII produced...) we can say that it is LATE. Therefore the way they printed "U.S.ofA." would say that was also a later design.

For that reason I put the IRWIN-U.S.ofA. just BEFORE that one.

I put the IRWIN-U.S.A. at the END of the list because the one I have like that was a postwar purchase! Unfortunately I also have another 9" (14 1/2" OA) that was in the same package that is marked "IRWIN-U.S. of A.".

I put the IRWIN at the beginning because it would seem to be a good advertisement and a sign of quality to have the "U.S.A." designation on any tool so it would also be EARLY rather than LATE as a way to mark them.

The stamped handle is the wild card. Did they save money by not stamping the shaft and by printing it on the handle? Perhaps....
Maybe they had that version made by a subsidiary producer to IRWIN???.....

I don't know where to put that one, but the others seem to have a LOGICAL progression......

[lucakiki]

Can we really definitively state that the GOV. STOCK NUMBER was not used before the Willys drawing requirement to do so?

As for the Irwin stamped on wood, it does seem anyway the one with the stronger evidence of being correct: SNL G-503 plus Greg K. kit.
Yes, it does read made in USA.

Who might the IRWIN subsidiary producer be?

[Chuck Lutz]

If there is a question about the 41 number appearing on the IRWIN before the 1950 requirement, you would have to look at the WO drawing once again....

First, if you believe the STAMPED ink IRWIN is correct, then the 41 would not appear at the same time, so for whatever time period you think the inked handle version was used, the 41 would not have been used.

Second, if you believed that ANY of the mfger named on the drawing at some point volunteered to add on the 41 info, then you would have to refuse to accept any other non-41 from that mfger....at some point in time.

Third, as Sean has staked out in his thread, and I have tried unsuccessfully in mine recently......there is nothing except the 1950 WO notation that addresses WHEN the 41 stamping was to be used. Anyone with evidence or proof to the contrary needs to pony it up.

For that reason we can't DEFINITIVELY say that it was or was not available during WWII. Those that include it as "Correct" in a kit are taking the position that if you can't prove it is NOT OK, then anything goes....a position that I know Luca is not in favor of. On the other hand, since we can't prove it was NOT available in WWII and bought by Willys or Ford for a factory kit (or even as a replacement by QMC/ORD for a motorpool kit), it is continued to be grabbed up when available for a decent price by those who feel it can reside in the "MAYBE" category for a little longer until more evidence surfaces.

I have no idea as I said about the chronological use of the IRWN markings, however if the ink-stamped one in Greg K's 1945 Willys kit is highly valued as "evidence" for a late war Willys factory kit.....then the ink-stamped and only the ink-stamped IRWIN would seem to be acceptable for an IRWIN and the question of the 41 type is a mute one.

As far as another company making some of the tools under the IRWIN name, I don't believe that it is uncommon for companies to sub-contract them from other producers.....in Alloy Artifacts they mention that Vlchek made tools for other companies and "disguised" the markings to reflect that. Perhaps an ink-stamped IRWIN was made by a subcontractor that did not have permission to use the IRWIN logo in it's italicized and probably trademarked/copywrited version?

[Greg Hines]

...
Third, as Sean has staked out in his thread, and I have tried unsuccessfully in mine recently......there is nothing except the 1950 WO notation that addresses WHEN the 41 stamping was to be used. Anyone with evidence or proof to the contrary needs to pony it up.

If the Willys drawings are your Gospel then explain THIS:


The shaft:


The handle:


Since the USAAF became the USAF in 1947 and was more than ready (to say the least) to be separated from the Army I feel comfortable asserting that this screwdriver was stamped/purchased no later than 1947.

Greg

[Roger]

Hi Chuck,

It seems that all varities of the "Perfect Handle" type screwdriver have their own unique charicateristics. Although similar from across the room the individualism shows when looking close up

From the top view, very similar. Irwin may be a tad larger diameter shaft. The Torbrin has the "triangle 6" showing the length of the blade. (at least on the model I have) But very similar to the Vlchek. More differances show when viewed from the side in the wood. (as you have suggested). Not sure, but I think there are different logos for Torbrin. Mine is the barber pole scroll in block letters. (soon to be restored)


Some +/- length variations show

Barber pole logo

[john barton]

U.S.A. was required on the shovels and axes purchased for the ARMY from various dates up to 42-43..
that is seen in the gov't specs for those items...
I have the same spec for wrenches- no mention of USA...I have never looked very hard for the screwdriver, hammer, etc...

they would be: GGG-S-xxx or GGG-H-xxx...probably available somewhere online or by order...when I did some exploring they were always superceded.. but I was able to find some with a company that specializes in outdated gov't docs
but I think you should consider that U.S.A. may be the earlier version?

[Chuck Lutz]

Greg...if the 41 IRWIN was produced in 1945, or 1946 or 1947 it could esily have gotten the "USAAF" stamping on it in any of those years.

However.....

Looking at the rivets on the handle of that screwdriver.....they certainly do not look like factory ORIGINAL rivets I have seen on any other screwdriver photo posted on the gee thusfar....so that looks like a repair/replacement....and not the grips that originally came from the factory!

Roger:
Other TOBRINs have the triangle and blade length on them so that seems to have been a common practice. I don't know the chronological appearance of the straight vs. barber pole markings myself.

In general, the more pics we have of the styles that are stamped, the better chance we can ID one with the ink-stamping that is worn off...or if the handles are missing.

[Roger]

Looking at the rivets on the handle of that screwdriver.....they certainly do not look like factory ORIGINAL rivets I have seen on any other screwdriver photo posted on the gee thusfar....so that looks like a repair/replacement....and not the grips that originally came from the factory!

Chuck the rivet that was not sanded on the Vlchek is the same as Gregs Iwin. Also there might not have been as much regard for fine finishing to the cheaper government issued and purchased tools. IMHO

[Greg Hines]

Greg...if the 41 IRWIN was produced in 1945, or 1946 or 1947 it could esily have gotten the "USAAF" stamping on it in any of those years.

However.....

Looking at the rivets on the handle of that screwdriver.....they certainly do not look like factory ORIGINAL rivets I have seen on any other screwdriver photo posted on the gee thusfar....so that looks like a repair/replacement....and not the grips that originally came from the factory!

Oh, you're right Chuck, someone took the handles from a used pre-1948 screwdriver and put them on a 1950+ screwdriver to fool us.

I should have been watching for that trick. BTW should I throw out the other screwdrivers I have like this one?

Greg

[Roger]

I should have been watching for that trick. BTW should I throw out the other screwdrivers I have like this one?

Greg, Let me know when you do! I'll be the one at your curb rummaging through your garbage can!.......

[Chuck Lutz]

If there are many screwdrivers out there with the same type of riveting, please post some photos of them....I have checked the tool sticky and the gee and don't seem to find any. I looked at the VLCHEK photo and I don't see the same indentations and look of a field-replacement rivet that this one has, just a mushroom headed rivet that is indented into the wood. If the rivet IS a tube type and is pressed like the one on Greg's 41 IRWIN, we can't see if from your photo...

In fact on all of those and the ones I have, the factory rivets appear to be a MUSHROOM HEAD and not an indented/spread TUBE-TYPE rivet like these appear to be. Yes, the rivets are sometimes pressed in below the surface of the wood, but they are mushroom types not the tube type a replacement would come with....and what these appear to be.

A photo of the rivets on the reverse of that screwdriver would be helpful.

Now, let's look at that screwdriver another way...

If you were trying to build up a WWII USAAF tool kit and wanted to include that screwdriver in it....if someone questioned your choice of that one, they might ask you to prove that the 41 marked IRWIN was available during WWII. How would you go about proving that screwdriver is OK for a WWII USAAF toolkit?

You can't...so using a stamp that could have been put on there in 1945 or 1946 or 1947 or ??? is not the way to validate the 41 marking as "WWII" either.

......

John, I have an IRWIN-U.S.A. that was purchased in 1963 so we know that this type WAS available after WWII....if that helps. Incidentally, it was in a three-pack but the short one is now lost.....the 6" (11 3/8" OA) is marked "IRWIN-U.S.A." and I just got out the 9" (14 1/2" OA) and it is marked "IRWIN-U.S. of A."......go figure!

[lt.luke]

Good discussion. Please be careful demanding people "pony up" information. There are a lot more Ford owners than there are screwdriver people. We Ford owners are patiently waiting for some info to be "ponied up"!