2017 flea

Manufacturers, configurations, Shovels, Axe, Wrenches, Oiler, F/E etc.
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gpw_42
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Re: 2017 flea

Post by gpw_42 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:23 pm

lt.luke wrote: (and it's Basic Initial Issue) Soldiers did and do put a lot of stock in pictures for conducting inspections or maintenance.

What else?
I'm nitpicking, but you asked "what else?"...In this context BII stands for "Basic Issue Items"...and I'll bet that the term "BII" is a post-WW2 term. Luke, I know that you know this, but for those who are interested, here's a link to a page from the -10 (operator technical manual) for a 2.5T truck, which shows the pictures Luke mentioned above:
http://trucks25ton.tpub.com/TM-9-2320-3 ... 101209.htm I wholeheartedly agree with him about the value soldiers place(d) on the pictures when doing inventories.

Steve

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Raritan

Post by lucakiki » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:20 am

lt.luke wrote:RAPD is the Raritain Army (Depot) Publishing Department. Raritain is in NJ USA.

What else?
Luke, whether the P in RAPD stands for Photographic or for Publishing, Raritan in New Jersey is written with just one i. :)
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Re: 2017 flea

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:12 am

lt.luke wrote:Soldiers did and do put a lot of stock in pictures for conducting inspections or maintenance.
gpw_42 wrote:I wholeheartedly agree with him about the value soldiers place(d) on the pictures when doing inventories.
I do, too. For type and number of tools. To a certain degree. (If someone can tell me what the size of the sockets are in that figure without consulting the SNL, just to name one example of the limitations to a figure over an SNL, I would agree 100%.) Later, and well into the 1980's, a lot of the kits came with life-size outlines that would be used, quite literally, to lay the tools out on. And for awhile there not too long ago the GMTK had outline compartments in the box, making it almost impossible to not know what was supposed to be in the kit. But just so Sam isn't confused (his issues are not identifying what tools and how many, the SNL takes acre of that, but identifying the supplier(s)), there is a big difference between inventory and supply. The SNL contained the Federal Stock Number or Ordnance part number or Ordnance drawing number that would be used to order tools. Whatever Mfgr(s) were aligned with those numbers up the Ordnance Dept supply chain are the tools that would be delivered.

My caution about RAPD figures has to do with collectors using them 70+ years later to identify an exclusive supplier. The figures were not meant to articulate any information about suppliers. The figures can and often do reveal distinctive manufacturing features (to wit, what just happened above wrt to the open gear ratchets and P&C), and therefore, the identification of at least one mfgr who supplied some of the tools used by RAPD in that particular figure. And that does give credence to P&C as one supplier. That doesn't mean P&C was the exclusive supplier and it is not the same thing as definitively identifying the supplier(s) for this kit. (Personally, I consider the "KEY, Release" item in the SNL as a strong indication that Blackhawk was a supplier at least prior to 1943 when this kit was probably first specified. And, going back to my fist point now - if someone can please show me the socket release key in the figure, I'd be more inclined to get both legs up on that inventory-(or collect)- by- RAPD-figure bandwagon.) The figures in the ORD 6 SNL G-27 are a tremendous reminder of the value and also the caution to RAPD figures.
lucakiki wrote:Luke, whether the P in RAPD stands for Photographic or for Publishing, Raritan in New Jersey is written with just one i. :)
The P" is Publications.
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Re: 2017 flea

Post by gpw_42 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:38 am

Wingnutt wrote: there is a big difference between inventory and supply. The SNL contained the Federal Stock Number or Ordnance part number or Ordnance drawing number that would be used to order tools. Whatever Mfgr(s) were aligned with those numbers up the Ordnance Dept supply chain are the tools that would be delivered.
The "big difference between inventory and supply" is SO significant, and so much of what I struggle with, as a budding GMTK collector! Thanks for succinctly laying that out, Wingnutt.

Steve

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Re: 2017 flea

Post by mudbox » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:22 am

Sam, I did a bit more digging and found some compelling evidence for Plomb as well as P&C. As was mentioned before, they were already part of the same organization, so it's really not that hard to believe. At least that gives you options. :)

Anyway, I started with this period pic of a heavy wrecker. Dated April '43 which shows the truck at Camp Gruber, Oklahoma. Identified as an M1 wrecker so, a bit earlier than yours, right?
The toolbox appears to have the same construction as the box upthread. There is a large hasp coming down the center/front and there is a seam through the middle of the toolbox where it folds open. Fairly distinctive design.
Not the best pic, but I think you can see what I'm talking about.

Image

Then a bit more googling, led me to a picture of a Plomb box that sure looks military to me! Actually owned by another member of this forum.

Image

It's really hard to find a good high res (period) image of one of these wreckers. But I looked at quite a few. Most that I found appeared to have a different type of box mounted to them. The 'bubble' on the front of these boxes is also a distinctive feature, but I haven't yet nailed down who made that box.

Here's a good image of the box I'm talking about.

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That box is on the back of this wrecker:

Image

So, it looks like there is at least one other option for you. But you said you already have the box anyway, so now you just need to fill it up!

Happy hunting! And be sure to come back here post pics of some of tools as you acquire them!
-Jason


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Re: 2017 flea

Post by kw573 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:13 pm

Wow, Jason,
You are good at digging!

Yes, the first picture is of a Kenworth M1, probably a model 570 of 1941. These were the pre-standardized models, 570/571/572. Mine is the standardized model 573 (1943 - 1945).

This is the first picture of a Plumb box on a truck (other than the TM pic already posted) that I have seen. This matches with the dead flat top on the radiator guard, revealing that it is a Kenworth. The Ward LaFrance trucks have a slight raise in the top of this guard, just visible in your last picture, being a standardized WLF model series 5. So, here is further evidence that the Kenworth trucks were fitted with the Plumb box.
The 'WLF' box I have no clue. But there will be interest on the G if someone identifies it!

Realistically, I think I need to stick with Craftsman/SK from purely practical reasons (read . . . money and time :? )

I have a second Kenworth waiting for rebuilding in the next decade or so, so will be on the lookout for another Plumb 9990 if anyone should come across one.

Gentlemen, thank you for your time, advice and information. It continues to be very very helpful.
Perhaps I need to start a thread just on this tool kit?

Keep digging in you stashes in case you have a wrench to fill one of my gaps.

Have a nice day.
Sam.
1942 Script GPW (Daily driver).
Willys MB.
2 x Diamond T 969.
Kenworth M1A1 Heavy Wrecker.
3ton GS (Blitz) Trailer.
150gal water tanker trailer.

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Re: 2017 flea

Post by Tin Medic » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:31 pm

Sam, do you have a list of tools you're missing?
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Re: 2017 flea

Post by mudbox » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:03 pm

kw573 wrote:Wow, Jason,
You are good at digging!

This is the first picture of a Plumb box on a truck (other than the TM pic already posted) that I have seen.
Excellent. I was glad to have found it... but.... you will probably enjoy seeing this Kenworth advert as well. :D
Sure does look like another Plomb box to me. I couldn't find a high res version of this ad though.
Image
kw573 wrote:The 'WLF' box I have no clue. But there will be interest on the G if someone identifies it!
I'm working on it! :lol: It's pretty unique. Starting to wonder if WLF was making that box in house? :?: I really doubt that, though.
kw573 wrote:I have a second Kenworth waiting for rebuilding in the next decade or so, so will be on the lookout for another Plumb 9990 if anyone should come across one.
On the Plomb box, I'll let you know if I come across one, but I'm sure I would keep it for myself if I did! :wink:
kw573 wrote:Perhaps I need to start a thread just on this tool kit?
It couldn't hurt. That would also give some other heavy wrecker guys something to drool over!
As Tin Medic said, a list of tools you're looking for would help. I know myself and others on this board that frequent flea markets would be glad to keep a look out for you, or at least check our 'reserves' :lol: . Prices would sure beat eBay. :roll:

-Jason

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Re: 2017 flea

Post by kw573 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:26 pm

Jason,
Now that I think about it, it is not so fanciful that WLF made their own box. After all, they did specialize in manufacturing fire fighting trucks with lots of cabinet work.

Yes, a detailed timely list is needed. I'll have to get back to you with that.

Basically:
- DOE = underline C / 'CI' / recessed panel / no 'N4' / no 'vanaduim'
- DBE = underline C / 'CI' / raised panel / 'FORGED IN USA' / no 'N4' / no 'vanaduim'
- Sockets (1/4"+ 3/8" + 1/2" dr.) = underline C / circle H
- Sockets (3/4" dr.) = <SK> / ?
Does this seem a reasonable choice of tool model for the era?

I believe the 'vanadium' is pre-1940s, is this correct?
I have no clue what the 'N4' means.

Details to come later. Just a bit busy this week.

Thanks heaps.

Sam.
1942 Script GPW (Daily driver).
Willys MB.
2 x Diamond T 969.
Kenworth M1A1 Heavy Wrecker.
3ton GS (Blitz) Trailer.
150gal water tanker trailer.

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Re: 2017 flea

Post by mudbox » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:44 pm

kw573 wrote:I believe the 'vanadium' is pre-1940s, is this correct?
I have no clue what the 'N4' means.
Vanadium would be pre-war, yes. I don't really know about the N4 (or most), but I think all the post war wrenches are marked that way. It's gotta be some kind of code for the manufacturer. :?:

The threat of rain kept a lot of the vendors away today. But I did manage this 11in Billings and Spencer adjustable. That's the first Billings adjustable I've found at the flea. :P

Image

Last weekend, I made it to the flea JUST as it started to rain. All the vendors were packing up fast. I ran around like a mad man and walked away with this Auto-Lite wire loop gap tool. All the loops and the glass are still there. Missing the end of the adjuster. Pretty good shape overall.

Image

-Jason

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Re: 2017 flea

Post by mudbox » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:01 am

Sunday was a nice day and I did a bit better for wartime stuff.
Sockets are D-I, Plomb, Blackhawk, SK
5in extensions are 1/2" drive New Britain and Craftsman (H)
Pair of Disston file handles, no brand mark remaining
Pair of 1/2" drive braker bars, Wright U.S., and None Better
And a #1 Phillips driver, Reed and Prince. Not sure if this is wartime or not, but I've never seen another.
Oh, and the Stanley P.W.A. ball peen hammer. :)
Image

Stanley:
Image

Reed & Prince:
Neat brand mark on the driver shaft.
Image

I also picked up this galvanized '41 NESCO screw top WATER can! :D White band of paint around the top. In mostly good condition with a few dings and an incorrect cap. Has been used for fuel... :cry:
Image
Image

And this Canvas U.S.N. duffel bag.
Champion Canvas Supplies, Inc. 1945
Image
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Belonging to D W Walsh
Image

-Jason

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Re: 2017 flea

Post by Gordon_M » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:12 am

mudbox wrote: Oh, and the Stanley P.W.A. ball peen hammer. :) -Jason
That's a first, but I suppose even aircraft need hit every now and again :P
Gordon

1939 TD20 Pickup
1940 WD21 Panel
1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1943 Ben Hur
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1944 Saginaw M19 ski trailer x 2
1950 Saginaw M19 ski trailer x 2
1953 Tucker Sno-Cat
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer

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Re: 2017 flea

Post by mudbox » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:37 am

I thought you would be the first to spy that PWA hammer. :P
Gordon_M wrote:That's a first, but I suppose even aircraft need hit every now and again :P
For sure, but why would it need to have it's own part #... A hammer is a hammer, right? I haven't weighed it yet, butI think it's around 10oz.
-Jason

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Re: 2017 flea

Post by Wingnutt » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:41 am

Why is a hammer different than a short offset DBE wrench or a crowfoot etc etc? PWA had their own part numbers for all the tools in their shops and kits.
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Re: 2017 flea

Post by Gordon_M » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:48 am

mudbox wrote:I thought you would be the first to spy that PWA hammer. :P
Gordon_M wrote:That's a first, but I suppose even aircraft need hit every now and again :P
For sure, but why would it need to have it's own part #... A hammer is a hammer, right? I haven't weighed it yet, but I think it's around 10oz.
-Jason
All the old time engineers will tell you that there are a hundred types and sizes of hammer and you need the right one for the job. How many times have you tapped away at getting something out till it riveted clean over, when you really should have had a larger hammer and just hit it once. :mrgreen: I assume that they weigh / class hammers just by the head weight and not the total weight - not sure. It's a proper PWA tool with its own reference number, and I've never seen another marked hammer. Well found.
Gordon

1939 TD20 Pickup
1940 WD21 Panel
1941 Highway Trailer K-38
1943 Ben Hur
1944 Iron Fireman T-36 Snow Tractor
1944 Saginaw M19 ski trailer x 2
1950 Saginaw M19 ski trailer x 2
1953 Tucker Sno-Cat
1986 Nolan Road/Rail trailer

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