Schwarze Horn

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.

Moderator: Moderator

Postby Alasdair Brass » Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:02 pm

Hi Kevin,
At one time, it was thought that trumpeted Schwarze horns belonged to early slat-grills but I think it is now accepted that they were used as an optional second supply, but perhaps in small numbers, throughout most MB production. It is my opinion you could use one quite legitimately and provide the proof of useage through the SNL's.

Best regards
Al
D. Alasdair Brass
New Zealand.
MVPA 5676
GPW 53126
MB 290463
Bantam T3 36501
Part of the G since early '98
User avatar
Alasdair Brass
G-Lieutenant General
G-Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 4140
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 12:59 pm
Location: Christchurch New Zealand

Schwarze Horn

Postby Stephan Heil » Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:44 pm

What´s about the sparton Horn, isn´t it correct for a mb / gpw
or where do you all get the info that a schwarze horn is correct;
what´s about the Sparks Withington Horn B 9427 as mentioned in
TM 10-1359 from Mar. 30, 1942

Regards

stephan heil :?
Stephan Heil
 

Postby Alasdair Brass » Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:52 am

Hi Stephan,
SPW-P-9427 is listed as well as SZE-61400, being a cross to WO-A-1302 and FM-GPW-13802. SPW is Sparton and SZE is Schwarze. It seems there were two suppliers.

Best regards
Al
D. Alasdair Brass
New Zealand.
MVPA 5676
GPW 53126
MB 290463
Bantam T3 36501
Part of the G since early '98
User avatar
Alasdair Brass
G-Lieutenant General
G-Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 4140
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 12:59 pm
Location: Christchurch New Zealand

Re: Schwarze Horn

Postby Fred Coldwell » Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:54 am

Stephan Heil wrote:What´s about the sparton Horn, isn´t it correct for a mb / gpw or where do you all get the info that a schwarze horn is correct;
what´s about the Sparks Withington Horn B 9427 as mentioned in TM 10-1359 from Mar. 30, 1942. Regards, stephan heil :?

Stephan:

"Sparton" is a brand name used by manufacturer Sparks Wirthington [SPARrks wirthingTON = SPARTON].
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 MZ-2 MB-391532, est. DOD 12-28-44
1944 Dodge T233 3/4-ton 4x4 Command Car
1945 Dodge T233 3/4-ton 4X4 Utility
1946 CJ2A-12797
MVPA #283C
User avatar
Fred Coldwell
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
 
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:12 am
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

schwarze Horn

Postby Stephan Heil » Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:20 am

Thanks for the quick info.

stephan heil
Stephan Heil
 

Late war short trumpet horn A-17715

Postby Fred Coldwell » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:01 am

Frank wrote: I have seen a LOT of 45 Willys MB`s with the short type horn. This have been debated earlyer, but no one have found any proof. Do you have any pictures ore manuals that show`s the long WWII type horn used on the CJ`s? Please e-mail me ore post here if you have any info. Best Regards, Frank..


Frank:

No, but here's the opposite: a wiring diagram from the 1945 First Edition CJ-2A Parts List that shows a short trumpet horn on the 1946 CJ-2A:

Image

Note that this short trumpet horn is directly connected to late war WO military part number A-17715 by their common key number 28. This short trumpet late WW II MB horn A-17715 was discussed in this earlier thread:

http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.ph ... umpet+horn

I think the above drawing showing A-17715 as a short trumpet horn is conclusive because the drawing is contemporary to the year the horn was first used, 1945, is in an official document from the company that installed the horn on their military and civilian vehicles, Willys-Overland, and is depicted in a new drawing for the CJ-2A wiring diagram as opposed to being in a recycled drawing of a MB wiring diagram that was merely adopted for use in the CJ-2A parts list, definitely not the case here.

By contrast, note the distinct long trumpet on MB horn A-1312, key number 25, in this 1943 MB wiring diagram from page 0600-23 in WO Maintenance Manual TM-10-1513 Change No. 1 dated May 1, 1943:

Image

To me, the visual difference between the very late war short trumpet horn A-17715 and the early-to-late war long trumpet horn A-1312 is proof positive that military horn A-17715 had a short trumpet. The fact that A-17715 was released for production and use on the MB on July 9, 1945, as discussed in the above other thread, establishes to my personal satisfaction that very late war MB jeeps built during the last 7 weeks or so of production had the short trumpet A-17715 horn installed at the WO factory, consistent with your personal observation of many 1945 jeeps.
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 MZ-2 MB-391532, est. DOD 12-28-44
1944 Dodge T233 3/4-ton 4x4 Command Car
1945 Dodge T233 3/4-ton 4X4 Utility
1946 CJ2A-12797
MVPA #283C
User avatar
Fred Coldwell
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
 
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:12 am
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Postby Sean Collins » Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:26 pm

Fred:

I don't think the CJ2A manuals can be considered conclusive, certainly not all-inclusive.

The CJ-2A parts manual says Autolite horn A-17715 was not used until after S/N 13908, which should be early 1946. (Sparton #645460 was an alternate).

Prior to that (up to S/N 13908) it calls for A-1312, (either Sparks Withington or Schwarze Electric, they did not use different part numbers).

I believe these were the long-trumpets, same as used on MB?

Sean
User avatar
Sean Collins
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
 
Posts: 1203
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:40 am
Location: North Idaho

Postby Kearney99 » Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:52 am

Ok, Mine is the real deal. Trumpet length matches that ob Bob N.s website.

Now, Its not very loud, How can I make it louder?

does anyone have an assembly drawing of this?

I had it apart, but lost track of which nsulator went where,so I replaced some with new ones. It works, but not very loudly.

Any ideas?
Kevin Kearney
Willys MB 204893 - 1/20/43
BT3-C Trailer #7055

Vice-President
Berlin Airlift Historical Foundation
Douglas C-54E "Spirit of Freedom"
Boeing C-97G "Angel of Deliverance"

Secretary
Central Jersey Military Motor Pool
User avatar
Kearney99
G-Captain
G-Captain
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:28 am
Location: Jamesburg, NJ

Postby Keith Buckley » Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:40 pm

Fred,

I think we're onto something here...

You said Based on the PRF the A17715 was released to production on 7/9/45. ( You reference HA-033 and B-10539)

The supplier was developed as experimental project 1680 authorized 4/27/45.

Sparks Withington Part number B10419 was added 5/16/45, and it was released to production on 6/20/45 based on Engineering Documents.
(Note: Supp 64960, was AE-17715

So, it appears that the PRF's were issued about 2 weeks after the Engineering release.

It appears we can date this particular horn also.
Prior to 12-20-45 it was specified to have one drain hole. After 12-20-45 it was revised to have 4 drain holes!

HA-033 changed to HA-037 on 3/12/46, and then again to HA-4037 on 11/23/56.

More to follow...
MVPA # 419
Keith Buckley
G-Major
G-Major
 
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:35 am

Postby Keith Buckley » Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:37 pm

The Sparton horn listed above as 645460 was listed as a 'new' part for CJ2A as of 6-5-47. It is SParks Withington b-10773. It was 5-1/4 " od until 3/18/59 when it changed to 5-1/8 diameter. The machine screws assembling the halves were switched to rivets at that same time.
MVPA # 419
Keith Buckley
G-Major
G-Major
 
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:35 am

Postby Frank » Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:19 am

Thanks Guys!
The short horn have botherd me for years. Most of the jeepers on this side of the "pound" say NO WAY......the horn should be Sparton and have a long front section. I agree on that for GPW`s and 1942 til 1945 MB`s, but find it hard to belive that so MANY 45 MB`s had their horn replaced due to problems and not the earlyer jeeps.
From my obersvations I will say that the short horn was used on 45 MB`s from "late" spring 45.... :roll: and not only for the last 7 weeks of production, but again that is from my obervation and not from factory proof.

Best Regards,
Frank..
Willys MB`s
Ford GPW`s
CJ2A
CJ-7`s
YJ, TJ and JK
User avatar
Frank
General
 
Posts: 4890
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 9:25 am
Location: NORWAY, the land of VIKINGS

Postby Oakes » Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:42 am

Fred, Keith look at that 2A diagram again. It's a 45 diagram. Note the light switch which I heard was only on the first 150 or so CJ2A's. Maybe the MB/GPW horns used on the earliest 2A's were simple buybacks, maybe primarily Ford, and the intended horn for the 2A was the later short trumpet horn and the intended light switch was the one shown in the picture but a cheaper one was found early in production. We all know about F script hinges on the 2A's. Maybe Willys ran out of MB horns for MB's and used the short trumpet horn and after the war Ford had some WWll long trumpets so they were used on the 2A's! Whatcha think? I have seen at least three very early 18H pto's w/ GPA shift handles too.
Didn't Ford cease production before Willys? This would answer why the F script bits on CJ2A's. Anyone have F script bits on late MB's?
Oakes
G-Brigadier General
G-Brigadier General
 
Posts: 2205
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 8:12 pm
Location: Beacon NY

Postby Sean Collins » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:53 am

Keith:

The Sparton horn listed above as 645460 was listed as a 'new' part for CJ2A as of 6-5-47.


Where did you find that info? The only data I have is from a parts manual that says it was put in use at S/N 13908, which would be very early '46. If a Willys document says otherwise, it would be a great help.

Autolite A-17715 was also put in use at the same S/N, 13908.

Bill:

Note the light switch which I heard was only on the first 150 or so CJ2A's.


My service manuals says this switch (Douglas # A-457) was used up to S/N 10242 (242 vehicles).

Fred:

Considering the above, your '45 2A wiring diagram (same as mine) shows 2 components which were, supposedly, never installed on the same vehicle. Thus my comment that the manuals can't be conclusive.

I have found dozens of inconsistencies, contradictions and flat out errors in the 4 various 2A manuals I have. I'm still documenting them, and one day might get around to publishing them.

Sean
User avatar
Sean Collins
G-Colonel
G-Colonel
 
Posts: 1203
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:40 am
Location: North Idaho

Postby Kearney99 » Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:25 am

So, Does anyone have any method of making one of these louder?
If I go out in traffic with this, No one is going to hear me.

Are there parts to be had?
Drawings?

Thanks.
Kevin Kearney
Willys MB 204893 - 1/20/43
BT3-C Trailer #7055

Vice-President
Berlin Airlift Historical Foundation
Douglas C-54E "Spirit of Freedom"
Boeing C-97G "Angel of Deliverance"

Secretary
Central Jersey Military Motor Pool
User avatar
Kearney99
G-Captain
G-Captain
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:28 am
Location: Jamesburg, NJ

Postby Jeff H » Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:04 am

Hi Kevin,

read here http://www.vernco.com/sparks/id516.htm

The striker screw in the middle limits the travel of the armature. This mainly controls the volume. (Thanks Sean!) The other screw adjusts the tension on the breaker points, controlling the frequency and resultant pitch
User avatar
Jeff H
G-Major General
G-Major General
 
Posts: 2958
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 5:18 pm
Location: South Jersey

PreviousNext

Return to MB GPW Technical Knowledge Base

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests