Schwarze Horn

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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Sean Collins
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Post by Sean Collins » Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:30 am

Kevin:
So, Does anyone have any method of making one of these louder?
I've rebuilt 2 other brands of the same basic design as the Schwarze. What follows is just my opinion, so may not be entirely correct, but it has worked for me so far. Both my rebuilds have been extrmely loud!

There are 2 adjustments to be made.

1) A large threaded set screw through the center of the motor coil (or the diaphragm on some models). This controls how far the diaphragm can move before the set screw strikes the stop slug in the middle of the diaphragm (or coil windings on the other models). This would control volume. The farther it's allowed to move, the louder it will be (up to a limit).

On The 2 horns I've redone, this set screw was protruding from the coil by .010 & .018". A very small dimension. I reset them as closely as possible.

2) An external screw adjuster that controls when the points open. When the points open, current flow is interrupted, the diaphragm springs back, the points close and it's all repeated over again.

If the points aren't adjusted enough to open, the diaphragm hits the stop before opening the points, and you just get the "clunk" and nothing else. Current still flows and the diaphragm is held against the stop.

If the points are adjusted too little, then the points will open, breaking the circuit, but the diaphragm has enough momentum to keep going, and it still hits the stop, and it sounds like a lot of rapid hammering going on inside.

When the points are adjusted just right, the diaphragm will open them early enough so that it's momentum won't carry it to full stop. That's the sweet spot.

3) There are usually paper gaskets between the diaphragm & housing. Naturally, if you omit the gasket, or replace it with a thicker/thinner one, then the adjustments are changed.

Another possibility for a weak output might be shorted motor coils. The only remedy for this is to rewind the motor.

Sean


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Fred Coldwell
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Post by Fred Coldwell » Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:10 am

Sean Collins wrote:Fred: I don't think the CJ2A manuals can be considered conclusive, certainly not all-inclusive.
.
Hi Sean:

I never claimed any W/O parts list should be considered "conclusive" for every matter and never claimed it was "all inclusive", so you are incorrectly reading a broad generalization when I am writing a specific narrow statement. My remarks are limited first by the post header, which is:

Post subject: Late war short trumpet horn A-17715.

That horn was the focus of my remarks, nothing broader. And regarding that horn, I simply stated the 1945 Parts List satisfied my personal standards, not necessarily anyone else's or even an objective standard when I wrote:

To me, the visual difference between the very late war short trumpet horn A-17715 and the early-to-late war long trumpet horn A-1312 is proof positive that military horn A-17715 had a short trumpet.

You are certainly entitled to disagree with my conclusion that A-17715 had a short horn based on whatever evidence you have to the contrary.
Sean Collins wrote:The CJ-2A parts manual says Autolite horn A-17715 was not used until after S/N 13908, which should be early 1946. (Sparton #645460 was an alternate).


I agree, and expressly noted I was talking about a 1946 CJ-2A when I said:

a wiring diagram from the 1945 First Edition CJ-2A Parts List that shows a short trumpet horn on the 1946 CJ-2A .
Sean Collins wrote:Prior to that (up to S/N 13908) it calls for A-1312, (either Sparks Withington or Schwarze Electric, they did not use different part numbers). I believe these were the long-trumpets, same as used on MB? Sean
You are correct, but I was not discussing the long trumpet horns used on the CJ-2A. I was discussing the late war short trumpet MB horn also used on the 1946 CJ-2A.
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
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Post by Fred Coldwell » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:02 am

Oakes wrote:Fred, Keith look at that 2A diagram again. It's a 45 diagram. Note the light switch which I heard was only on the first 150 or so CJ2A's. Maybe the MB/GPW horns used on the earliest 2A's were simple buybacks, maybe primarily Ford, and the intended horn for the 2A was the later short trumpet horn and the intended light switch was the one shown in the picture but a cheaper one was found early in production.
Hi Bill:

The wiring diagram I posted lists WO part number 641266 for item #22, the light switch assembly, so it is the slightly later CJ-2A light switch and not the Douglas A-457 light switch (WO # 640113) used on the first 215 CJ-2A jeeps [per the 1965 Service Manual for "Jeep" Universal, Section I, page 144] or the first 242 CJ-2A jeeps [per the unidentified Service Manual cited by Sean.] Heck, the A-457 Douglas light switch, WO # 640113, was never listed in the 1945 CJ-2A Parts List because it had already been superceeded by 641622 when the 1945 CJ-2A Parts List was first published in Fall 1945 (see below).

Although the diagram uses the outline of an A-457 Douglas switch, that outline represents whatever headlight switches were used in the CJ-2A during the time period covered by the Parts List, not solely the Douglas A-457 switch. So to me, the wiring diagram is accurate for early 1946 CJ-2A jeeps because of the part numbers listed in the key. And the 641622 headlight switch was used on CJ-2A jeeps at the same time as was the A-17715 horn, so no problem there.

To me, in a publication named a parts list, the part numbers listed within a diagram prevail over the outlines in the diagram itself. In the heirarchy of accuracy, the part numbers trump the diagram. I've seen too many instances where old, not longer accurate photos or innacurate diagrams were still used by WO after a change because their purposes was to represent, rather than accurately depict, the parts referred to by their specific part number. Parts counter guys order parts by their number, not their outlines.

So, you ask, why do I use the wiring diagram I posted as personal "proof positive" evidence of the short trumpet on the A-17715 horn while admitting it simutaneously inaccccurately depicts the shape of the 641622 light switch? Because the 1945 CJ-2A Parts List was published in Fall 1945, after a few thousand CJ-2A jeep had been built, as indicated by many early production changes such as semi-floating rear axle, to name but one. I think the wiring diagram on page 45 in the 1945 Parts List was revised before publication to show the short trumpet on the A-17715 horn because that change was easy to make due to the horn being by itself on the diagram; just erase the long trumpet and sketch in a short one. The light switch, by contrast, has connecting wires in particular locations and would be more difficult to redraw, to no great purpose that could not be better served by simply changing the light switch part number. It simply as not worth the effort to redraw the Douglas light switch.

To genernalize a bit, a parts list diagram is merely representative of the actual part, while the part number describes a particular part. The wiring diagram I posted is not an engineering drawing of the wiring harness, so it cannot be taken literally for all purposes. If enlarged to acutal size, the wiring shown in the diagram might not fit in an actual CJ-2A jeep because in the diagram components might be moved around to show their relative, as opposed to actual, positions. Nevertheless, I think diagrams can be selectively cited as evidence for some purposes, and those choices are a matter of judgment that comes from studying and working with parts lists and related materials over a long period of time.
Oakes wrote:We all know about F script hinges on the 2A's. Maybe Willys ran out of MB horns for MB's and used the short trumpet horn and after the war Ford had some WWll long trumpets so they were used on the 2A's! Whatcha think? I have seen at least three very early 18H pto's w/ GPA shift handles too. Didn't Ford cease production before Willys? This would answer why the F script bits on CJ2A's. Anyone have F script bits on late MB's?
I think, but cannot prove, WO simply "used up" on the first 3,909 CJ-2A jeeps the "on hand stock" of A-1312 long trumpet horns left over when the MB changed to the A-17715 short trumpet horn in Summer 1945. WO may have acquired some of those long trumpet horns from their own horn suppliers after Ford cancelled contracts or may have acquired them directly from Ford, but I have no evidence of either actually happening; its mere speculation.
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
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Post by Fred Coldwell » Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:02 am

Sean Collins wrote:Keith:
The Sparton horn listed above as 645460 was listed as a 'new' part for CJ2A as of 6-5-47.
Where did you find that info? The only data I have is from a parts manual that says it was put in use at S/N 13908, which would be very early '46. If a Willys document says otherwise, it would be a great help. Autolite A-17715 was also put in use at the same S/N, 13908.
Hi Sean:

Keith is discussing a different Sparton horn. A-17715, which began use at CJ2A-13909, is Sparton model B-10539 while WO # 645460, which was a new part as of 6-5-47, is Sparton model b-10773.

Sean, if you are basing your statements only on the 1949 CJ-2A/3A Parts List, you should also get copies of the 1945 and 1947 CJ-2A Parts List to give you a more (but still not wholly*) complete picture of 2A production changes, as all of them were not carried forward to and included in the 1949 2A/3A parts list. It would also help if you could identify the year and edition of the publication you are citing from so we can begin to nail down the differences. For example, my 1965 Service Manual for the "Jeep" Universal states on page 144 the Douglas A-457 light switch was used on the first 215 CJ-2A jeeps, while your unidentified service manual states it was used on the first 242 CJ-2A jeeps. It would be nice to document the sources for those 2 different numbers. *For example, the Douglas A-457 light switch, WO #640113, was omitted from the 1945 CJ-2A Parts List because as of the unknown publication date it had already been superceded by light switch #641622.
Sean wrote:Fred: Considering the above, your '45 2A wiring diagram (same as mine) shows 2 components which were, supposedly, never installed on the same vehicle. Thus my comment that the manuals can't be conclusive.
Sean: As I just mentioned to Bill, the 641622 part number listed at key #22 in the diagram was installed at the same time as the A-17715 horn, so there is no inconsistency. Going by the key part number instead of the diagram outline should help clarify things.
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
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Post by Fred Coldwell » Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:22 am

Keith Buckley wrote:Fred, I think we're onto something here ... it appears that the PRF's were issued about 2 weeks after the Engineering release.
Keith: Great, that is good factual knowledge.
Keith Buckley wrote:It appears we can date this particular (Autolite) horn also. Prior to 12-20-45 it was specified to have one drain hole. After 12-20-45 it was revised to have 4 drain holes! .... The Sparton horn listed above as 645460 was listed as a 'new' part for CJ2A as of 6-5-47. It is Sparks Withington b-10773. It was 5-1/4" od until 3/18/59 when it changed to 5-1/8 diameter. The machine screws assembling the halves were switched to rivets at that same time.
Wonderful details! Now I'll have to keep my eyes open for a "less holy" Autolite horn and screwed, as opposed to riveted, Sparton horns. ;)
Keith Buckley wrote:(Autolite) HA-033 changed to HA-037 on 3/12/46, and then again to HA-4037 on 11/23/56.
I wonder if the change to the 4XXX series number denoted a 12 volt horn? ... while the earlier three digit Autolite part number denoted a 6 volt horn?

Keith, many thanks for digging out all these horny facts.
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
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Post by Sean Collins » Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:22 am

Fred:

I stand corrected, no offense intended. I was mis-reading your statement to mean that the diagram was conclusive for all CJ2A wiring & components.

I also rely on parts lists for the most accurate info, though I don't have a '45 specific list yet. Hopefully soon, so I'll have more definitive data.

I'm curious though, where you say:
1945 First Edition CJ-2A Parts List that shows a short trumpet horn on the 1946 CJ-2A
How does a '45 manual, if published in fall '45, show a '46 CJ2A? Did Willys begin their model years in fall of the preceding year, as they do now?
the Douglas A-457 light switch (WO # 640113) used on the first 215 CJ-2A jeeps [per the 1965 Service Manual for "Jeep" Universal, Section I, page 144] or the first 242 CJ-2A jeeps [per the unidentified Service Manual cited by Sean.]
VERY interesting!

My info comes from the 1965 Service Manual for Jeep "Universal" , SM-1102-R5, Section I-95, page 156. (published by Kaiser Jeep Corp. covering CJ2A through CJ6A.)

So there are 2 distinctly different '65 service manuals?! And they are inconsistent.

Oddly, the 1949 Parts Manual omits this Douglas switch entirely.

Sean

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Post by Sean Collins » Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:48 am

Fred:

Our posts are crossing in transit!
if you are basing your statements only on the 1949 CJ-2A/3A Parts List, you should also get copies of the 1945 and 1947 CJ-2A Parts List
Agreed. But none of the usual vendors, that I know of, has these manuals, so I only have the '49 for reference. I have made contact with someone who is willing to copy his manuals for me, so hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll have them.

Meanwhile, I rely on this forum and the knowledge of those like yourself to help me fill in the blanks. Thanks for that!
Keith is discussing a different Sparton horn. A-17715, which began use at CJ2A-13909, is Sparton model B-10539 while WO # 645460, which was a new part as of 6-5-47, is Sparton model b-10773
So here the '49 manual is incorrect? as it states this part number (645460) being effective as of S/N 13908.
It would also help if you could identify the year and edition of the publication you are citing from so we can begin to nail down the differences
My mistake for not doing so the first time. I have done so in the preceding post. Interesting that we have 2 different '65 service manuals!

Also interesting, is that the '49 parts manual does not note this switch as being superceded by another, yet the same parts list is riddled with other, superceded, part numbers. The inconsistency is frustrating.
Going by the key part number instead of the diagram outline should help clarify things.
My diagram is from the '45 Maintenance Manual. The diagram itself is identical to yours, but mine does not include the part numbers, and I didn't look at yours to notice this part number/part inconsistency.

Will this madness never end? I suspect not. :?

Sean

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Post by Fred Coldwell » Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:50 am

Sean Collins wrote:Fred: How does a '45 manual, if published in fall '45, show a '46 CJ2A? Did Willys begin their model years in fall of the preceding year, as they do now?
Sean:

The date on which Willys began their 1946 model year is still an open question, although Bill Norris may have partially answered it from a WO Service Letter that mentioned an effective date for changing the year for vehicle serial numbers (I don't recall the details).

Willys-Overland's 1940's financial statements used a fiscal year end (September 30th) instead of a calendar year end, so one theory holds their vehicle model year ended at September 30th, at least for accounting purposes if not marketing purposes.

But I base my statement that the 1945 Parts List wiring diagram applies to a 1946 CJ-2A jeep on the fact it appears in a parts list which includes numerous parts (semi floating rear axles first used on CJ2A-13453) that were first used on jeeps with serial numbers higher than CJ2A-11824, which is consistently given in many sources as the last serial number for 1945 CJ-2A jeeps. Any 2A with a higher serial number would be a 1946 jeep.

The Parts List is copyright (calendar year) 1945, which may be different than the 1945 vehicle model year. I also wonder if there were different print runs of this First Edition parts list, perhaps some with updated pages as some pages in my 1945 Parts List are printed on different paper stock than the rest. Or is that due to paper shortages?
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
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1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
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Post by Fred Coldwell » Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:41 am

Sean Collins wrote:
Fred wrote: Keith is discussing a different Sparton horn. A-17715, which began use at CJ2A-13909, is Sparton model B-10539 while WO # 645460, which was a new part as of 6-5-47, is Sparton model b-10773

So here the '49 manual is incorrect? as it states this part number (645460) being effective as of S/N 13908.


The 1945 and 1947 Parts List each list both the A-1312 and A-17715 horns separated by a changeover serial number, so it appears both horns were still available as new parts from WO through 1947. But stock likely ran out by 1949, when the only horn available as a replacement horn for all earlier 2A horns was 645460. The easy way to avoid needlessly confusing parts countermen was to list the only available horn, 645450, effective as of s/n 13908. This purging of obsolete earlier part numbers is why enthusiasts restoring early jeeps, be they CJ or MB, want the parts list bracketing the manufacture date as well as the latest parts list, if not all of them.
Sean wrote: Will this madness never end? I suspect not. :?
Once you follow that Jeep (which you mistook for a harmless rabbit) down into the dark hole, the tea party only becomes madder ... there is no escape. ;)
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
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1945 CJ2-26 - X50
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Post by Keith Buckley » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:35 pm

Fred,

I emailed you a few documents pertaining to production year vs calendar year. It is a 1956,57,58 example.

Try using CJ3B. See what I mean? there is a year offset.

This should likely be a new post, but I'm logging off now I don't expect to have access for a week.

Things to keep in mind... The so called Nort Young list was actually tabulated in 1959, so there is room for error, it is not an original document for years prior to 49.

The one year offset seems to be through the 50's. Did they have a full year of inventory?
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Post by Bill Norris » Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:17 pm

Fred,

The letters I have found have the following dates for year end production.

12/31/45 end of 1945
12/31/46 end of 1946
12/31/47 end of 1947
10/04/48 end of 1948 (CJ2As were retitled as 1949s, no CJ2As were built in calender year 1949.
11/01/1949.

The last two letters were found by Bob Westerman

Bill
Last edited by Bill Norris on Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fred Coldwell
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Post by Fred Coldwell » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:31 pm

Bill:

Many thanks for your post summarizing the CJ-2A model year ends, much appreciated!
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
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Post by Sean Collins » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:52 am

Fred:
The easy way to avoid needlessly confusing parts countermen was to list the only available horn, 645450, effective as of s/n 13908. This purging of obsolete earlier part numbers is why enthusiasts restoring early jeeps, be they CJ or MB, want the parts list bracketing the manufacture date as well as the latest parts list, if not all of them.
That's where my presumptions come from. The '49 Parts List has both A-17715 and 645450 effective as of S/N 13908, and they are noted as being "interchangeable" with each other. I took this to mean that either might have been installed at that time, depending on which was in the stock bin at the time.

Unlike the Douglas A-457 light switch, the A-17715 has not been purged from the '49 list. I don't know what to make of that though.
the tea party only becomes madder ... there is no escape.
I need some of that magic drink to shrink me down small enough. If I go completely mad, I won't care anymore! :lol:

Bill:

Excellent date information. Thank you!

Sean

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Post by Oakes » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:06 am

Keith wrote
I emailed you a few documents pertaining to production year vs calendar year. It is a 1956,57,58 example.
Try using CJ3B. See what I mean? there is a year offset.
My early 3B fire jeep is registered as a 52 and I have at least one 1952 dated 3B manual. What's up with that!
Sorry it's way off topic but Keith started it.


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