trnsmissions ..the END!!

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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Post by Guest » Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:40 pm

i finally had the time to review this awesome dissertation!!
(i read and printed off all 83 pages; if i counted right)
i agreee w/elwood's comment earlier..."WOW"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this will definitely add to the current literature on this topic.
one cannot help but compare it to Bob N's book,
which, in my opinion is really great,
and was the main source of my own GPW trannie rebuild.
but it would have been nice to have john's meticulous work,
fantastic pictures, and added pearls, to really make the job
that much easier for an abject amateur like me!!!
this is truely a remarkable work
and will be an indespensible aid in T-84 OH for the novice.
my hats off to you john
this, with the 2 cents from others on the GEE, should be published!!

iowa


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Post by iowa » Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:42 pm

that was me above,
but you all knew that!
iowa
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Post by Herb Tate » Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:47 pm

I just rebuilt my T-84 following these instructions and it was easier than I thought!!! Thanks!!
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Post by Bean949 » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:56 pm

John, thanks a ton for the tutorial! I'll be rebuilding it soon, and this advise will go a long way. (If someone feels like doing the T-Case or Engine I'm all ears!)

One question, where do we aquire replacement shaft bushings? Is there a dealer you recomend? Thanks,

Bean
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Post by Herb Tate » Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:09 pm

Ron carries all the parts for the T84.
Herb KC5MO
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Load Testing Transmission

Post by TF O'Connor » Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:55 pm

AGAIN...NICE JOB SHOWING ALL OF THE COMPONENTS! NOW....DOES IT WORK!!!
As you know the T84 transmission is proned to popping out of second gear, well get this little bit of info.
Even with all new parts you might still have a problem with it jumping out of second gear or having a hard time going into gear. Lets take the prior problem of it jumping.
For years we've struggled with a "Hit or Miss" strategy with these transmissions so we have finally built us a load test Gallopie (Jah-lop-py) due to the fact that we have done everything immaginable with our most current transmission project. Every bit of it is new and all of the tollerances are perfect but, and this is a big "Butt" it still jumps out of gear.
We thought that shimming the rear bearing up to the transfer case would take care of the problem as well as using high load bearings but guess what? It still jumps out of gear!
Does anyone out ther have any more suggestions besides just throwing away this beautiful core and starting all over again?

Thanks
Militerry
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T84

Post by willy » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:15 pm

It probable has been said before but you are asking.?
Have you looked at the shift rails for worned out ball sockets or worn balls or looseness in the cover plate.
Willy :)
p/s I have worked on many T84 while I was working for Archer Bros with good results many years ago.
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Jumping out of second with all new components

Post by TF O'Connor » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:46 am

Hi Willy:
Yah, everything is new and both cases are mint so it's a bit of a brain tease at this point. If you know of Mike Stopforth you'd know that he's been around about as long as Art and they were good friends. Well, I've worked with Mike on these transmissions for the last 10 years and we were always in communication with Art about all types of problems with the old Jeep including the Philipino body problems. Art, Mike, Ron, Darcy Miller and myself were all intrumental in improving their work.
When you say you had great results did you in fact ever test load one of yours? And if not, did you ever check back with the customer to find out how they all performed. I think most people just live with the problem and refuse to admit it out loud which unfortunately keeps us problem solvers kind of in the dark as to how to eliviate it (jumping) once and for all. We've taken apart original transmissions before and sometime you find shims in behind the rear bearing from the factory. We thought this was it but it wasn't. Now, I've heared of cross-cutting the second gear from Peter Fraser who use to work with me but is now working full time for a construction company and doesn't have the time to help so I'm back to whomever wants to help find a way through this problem. I have to admit even Peter's trans Jumped out of gear once in a blue moon. I also was told that Art Archer had a sign above his counter that read," We do not guarrentee transmission rebuilds from jumping out of gear". Must have been a silent problem for you guys as well.
Anyway, I'll keep you all updated as we rip and tear into this problem again. Thank God for load test machines or i'd be taking this trans/transfer out of perfectly restored Jeep which as you know, is big pain in the rear! We are now into our 4th attempt so wish me luck!

Militerry
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Post by john barton » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:57 am

I have found that the main reason these transmissions jump out of gear is bad alignment between input and output shafts....they need to be lined up straight, down the center axis, and height in case, etc...
I don't know how there were when built.... this fault shows up in the troubleshooting section...but I never read other reports of it being significant.

I have seen many reasons why they aren't aligned now...
front bearing is caught on front gasket - the original front gasket had a space so that snap ring in bearing is flush against case...NOS gaskets are shrunk..
home made ones trace from the hole and don't leave space..
When I assemble..I pay particular attention to front bearing retainer and how it fits, holds bearing, etc...
a bad bearing in flywheel will cause front input to wobble..?
3 or 4 years ago, but not with the 5 part transmission post..I posted some pictures of how to set up synchro so that it is equa-distant between input and output shafts......that involves shimming one of the bearings to move
one shaft..it does make it shift better...but is involved and require several bolt ups to transfer case..
not sure new off shore bearings are as good??
worn bearings and recesses in case?
I have seen the rear gasket boogered up catching the interlock plunger and rear bearing.....any thing caught between two cases will mis align...uneven torqing of 5 bolts maybe??
over restoration with 20 coats of paint on cases, retainers..!..
so.. I'k sure you do your rebuids carefully...but there are several possible reasons...
if it pops out while accelerating..it is one reason...if it pops out while down shifting..it is another reason...
I have some other books I use at home....if i find a specific cause that I've noted or made corrections about...I will post them.
as I've stated in all my posts...this is just the way I do it...would love to hear other ideas..

John
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Current fix to this trans

Post by TF O'Connor » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:03 pm

Thanks John:
All good ideas. We'll look at those points again.
In our inspection today we may have found that the cluster gear may have had a little too much play. We went with another new cluster and an extra shim and now tollerances and alignments feel right but who knows?
We will put it into our test machine tomorrow (Friday) and give it a whirl for the fourth time. I'll report back with the results later.
Thanks again!
Terry
Call sign, "Militerry"

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Post by john barton » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:41 pm

I went back to a book I've used a few times with problem transmissions..
jumping out of gear while pulling means end play...so maybe shimming your cluster is good..also says misalignment ...

jumping out while coasting is almost always comes from mis alignment

jumping out in second is most often worn bearings...front or rear
and misalignment between input and output...check roller bearings in input
worn rollers or front end of output..

but as i mentioned,, all refer back to mis alignment inside transmission or mounting..

somewhere I have a chevy book about racing transmission...need to track it down...doesn't have troubleshooting...but does explain the synchro
details about being equa distant between shafts..
check your test vehicle for boogered end of bellhousing or front of transfer case..?

john
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Re-cap

Post by TF O'Connor » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:04 pm

This message is in response to your message John. Still hav'nt been able to test drive today because of parade rediness for tomorrows Veterans Day Parade in Petaluma, Ca.
The transmission has jumped out of second in both the restored Jeep that it is slated to be in, and the test machine. We've been fairly careful about alignment however the word "alignment" kind of puzzles me due to the fact everything is new starting with the flywheel bushing and continuing throught the transmission and into the transfer case. In other words, are you saying that the needle bearings in the output may be causing an alignment issue with the input shaft? Or, does the two need to be aligned like a drive-line? Can you be more specific?
So far, I think that the cluster shaft may have been used and there was definitely play in the old one and the new one so we shimed it for a tighter tollerance.
Terry
p.s. Oh and by the way, it jumps after letting off of the accelerator
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t-84

Post by willy » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:55 pm

Terry,
What I mean by good result is that none off the tranmission game back to my knowlege. And the sign went up after I had left.
Willy :)
I have Military and Radio Surplus.
MVPA Life Member 683
1943 GPW 98356, 1964 M151, and trailers, plus many Radio's 916-761-5293
Seabee Navy 1982-1988
NRA life Member, KE6EMX
Sold M35A2, M38, M38A1, M880 M37B1 all restored by me

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They had Balls!!!

Post by TF O'Connor » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:59 pm

Hi Willy:
I couldn't believe it when Mike told me about that sign. You can't expect a customer to pay those kind of dollars only to have it Jump out of gear!
I'm hell bent on improving the performance and have been for awhile now. For example, We run motors on a test stand for 30 hours and then put them into a shop Jeep and run them under load for about 400 miles before they even go back to the customer. We decided the transmission was no exception so we went ahead and built a test machine for them as well. The challenges are numerous but we feel we have eliviated most of the old common problems ie: excessive oil leaks, sticky valves, starting weaknesses etc. I've spent alot of money doing too.
Every once in awhile we get a nusance child like this jumping thing but Im confident we'll get it to perform right.
Anyway, I just want to ad my experiences so anyone listening can refer to it for answers.
Thanks again for your input!
Terry
Call sign, "Militerry"

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Post by Eddie Holland » Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:13 pm

now for the transfer case please!! Im rebuilding a Gp one but its very similiar!
42 GPW 12/30/42 Matching #'s 88,638 being restored
Restoring
M-151 Ford
M-151-A1 Ford
M-151-A2 AMG restored
2 M-416 restored
restoring 2 M-100s


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