Yet another bumper marking question

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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onaway
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Yet another bumper marking question

Post by onaway » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:09 pm

I am getting ready to paint some numbers on my bumper and I know what my heart wants to do but I think it is incorrect as to what I should do.

My Dad was in the 76 ID, 502 FA Battalion C.

My heart wants to mark it 76 - 502F - C - 7 but I think it should be 3A - 502F - C - 7 as is called out in AR 850

I have a photo of his division meeting up with the Russians out of their division yearbook and you can clearly see 76 - X then HQ- on the right side which made me wonder maybe the 76 would be okay. (not that anyone would really know)

Looks like they added mudflaps too.

Comments are appreciated.

Tim
jeep bumper.jpg
jeep bumper.jpg (184.4 KiB) Viewed 667 times
jeep close in.jpg
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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by GI. » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:38 am

onaway,
The pic. tell's you the way they were really marked, look's like a star in the middle, you can't go wrong marked like the pic.
But it sound's like you want to make it the way your heart tell's you to go. if it was me I would go like the pic.
If you decide to do that, and later you want to go with your heart, it only take's 20-30 minutes to change it.
How about a pic. of your jeep ?
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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by Wolfman » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:07 am

GPW 964 has army aircorp markings on it.
One of the owners father was a B-17 mechanic in England during the war and that is the way the part owner wanted it.
I didn't have any problem with it and he had the check book. :D
That has been several years ago now, and I have not heard any one complain so far.
Great pictures !
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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by Chuck Lutz » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:08 am

Your photo shows a jeep assigned to the 76th Infantry Regiment Headquarters...not the 502nd Field Artillery. It is my understanding that at least for infantry, the battalion is not a part of the address, but rather the Company is so Infantry would use the company and the "7". Artillery experts here could chime in to confirm that they used

Since the 76th was attached to the 3rd Army ...perhaps your jeep would be OK with:

3A 502F on the pass side and....

C-7 on the driver's side?

By the way...I see that the bumper was cut off right at the frame so anything to the left of "76 X" is missing...if it HAD the "3A" marking.
Chuck Lutz

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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by 70th Division » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:14 am

Hello,

Go with your Heart !!!!
It is correct !!!!

The 76th Infantry Division was an Infantry Division that did the fighting, up front.
Your jeep would be perfect at :

76-302 F Star C - 7

I just looked over some 70th Infantry Division Divarty vehicle pictures , and they are marked in the exact same fashion as you came up with.
On the front bumpers, and rear bumperettes on trucks, and jeeps.

I am thinking that a 3A would designate more that the vehicle was attached to the Third Army as a vehicle, attached to the 3rd Army HQ Group Troops and such , in the rear echelons of wherever they were located at the time.

The 76-X was the bumper marking that the 76th Infantry Division used when engaging the German Army as they advanced, and met the Russians.
As noted in your picture meeting the Russians.

For example, a jeep from the 76th Infantry Division, 304th Regiment, D company, would look like this :
The 76-X star D -304 this style was very common earlier in the War, later many divisions had used a combination of both styles ...
76-I-304 star D-10 , with 10 representing the 10th vehicle assigned to D Company ( purely as an example ) .
I have seen both styles used by the same division, during combat operations, during the war in various pictures.

The "X" stands for Infantry Division, the " I " also stands for Infantry Division.

The artillery battalion vehicles were marked like you thought. 76-302F Star C-7

Look for period pictures of 76th Vehicles to get a better outlook on what would be best for your vehicle !!
But I would drop the 3A, as that I believe would be more appropriate to 3rd Army vehicle, higher up in the organization of the 3rd Army, as many divisions and units made up the larger 3rd Army.



Best Regards,

Ray
Last edited by 70th Division on Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by 70th Division » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:23 am

Hello,

Here is a link to the 76th Division Website,
many great stories and recollections there.

A tribute to those great men of the 76th !


http://76thdivision.com/index.html

Ray

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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by Chuck Lutz » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:04 am

As you found in the AR-850-5....similar to this example (1A 6F A-10):
Bumper.jpg
Bumper.jpg (152.91 KiB) Viewed 595 times
3rd Army
502F


C Batallion
7th vehicle

That is what the "book says"....what the Colonel or the motorpool Captain or the Sgt said is probably how they were painted.

"It's your jeep"....As Dave Neale would say.
Chuck Lutz

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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by onaway » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:15 pm

Thank you for everyone's comments. I didn't know it the HQ staff had a different marking method. I would guess that would be the general's jeep coming to meet the Russians. I wish the photo was a higher resolution so you could see more detail. I wonder if those are archived some place?

Good catch on the bumper being cut Chuck. You must not even need to take the eye test for your driver's license.

I have some more photos that show the back of a tank destroyer unit marking and I will try and post that. I would like to scan it but the pages are very old and I don't want to risk damaging the book.

I need to update my rebuild thread as it is getting ready to roll out under its own power which is good as it is getting heavy to push around.

My Dad is 95 and I am hoping to give him a ride in it when the weather warms.

Here is a photo of him somewhere in Germany. I like the carbine laying on the hood of the truck behind him.
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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by 70th Division » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:00 pm

Hello Onaway,

Again what that book says is not accurate for US INFANTRY DIVISION vehicle markings at all !!

That book as pictured is referring to "Army Level" and "Corp Level" markings for "their" assigned vehicles, and other support units
that are NOT a US Combat Infantry Division.

The General's jeep you pictured is 100 percent correct for the 76th Division.
The 76-X is all that was ever on that front bumper, it is not cut off.
It says it is a jeep of the 76th Infantry Division, belonging to a Headquarters Co., what Regiment, It does not say,
but is the way it was done on those 76th Division jeeps and even the motorcycle has a 76-X on its front fender.

The book excerpt pictured would be fine if you were doing an "Army Level" or "Corp Level" vehicle,
but not a 76th Infantry Division "Onaway" Combat Vehicle !!!

This is what would have been on a jeep or truck of the 76th Division's
302nd Field Artillery Battery for your jeep as depicted the way you want it to be ..... 76-302F Star C - 7

There is no question about it at all.

I send my thanks and Best Wishes to your Greatest Generation Father , and American Hero !!!!
"Blessed are the Peacemakers" !!! They have given us all, our freedom, and can not ever be thanked enough !!


Best Regards,

Ray

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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by Chuck Lutz » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:08 am

Ray is correct....for a DIVISION HEADQUARTERS vehicle. If you are marking up your jeep for an HQ, then that would be acceptable of course. Just like these two:
1st ID Jeeps DDay.jpg
1st ID Jeeps DDay.jpg (94.66 KiB) Viewed 518 times
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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by 70th Division » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:37 am

Hello Chuck,

Great photo !!

(Keep in mind that those markings for D-Day were specialized for the Invasion, and also added geometric symbols to represent regiments etc.)

That 1st Infantry Division Jeep, is a jeep from Headquarters Company, period.
Jeeps behind it from every other company, A, B, C, D, E,F G,H ,I, K,L,M . I can assure you were marked the exact same way.
The markings are consistent with standard Infantry Division vehicle marking schemes.

There were two schemes mainly used......
The 1st Infantry Division had 3 Infantry regiments : 16th,18th,26th.
each Infantry Regiment had Companies A, B, C, D, E, F G,H ,I, K, L, M
(Not even mentioning Divarty, QM, Service Co, AT etc. but each regiment had a service company as well, along with an HQ Company.)
For example : (+) is a star.

1-X (+) A-1,
1 for 1st Infantry Division, X for an Infantry Division, A meaning A Company, Vehicle 1.
and the other standard version , which was a better informational scheme as it also listed the Regiment on the bumpers.
1-I-16 (+) A-1
( 1 Meaning 1st Infantry Division, I meaning Infantry Division, 16 meaning the 16th INF Regiment,
and A meaning A Company, 1 meaning vehicle one.)
The other regiments of the 1st are the 18th and the 26th.

1-I-18 A-1
1-I-26 A-1

That is how it was done for Infantry Division Infantry Regiments, and both methods can be seen, and even both being used in the same division !
In the Division, Field Artillery would add an F, the Engineers would and an E after their numbers, Service would use SV, Signal Co. would use S
Anti-Tank would use AT after their number, etc.

But the 76th Division Field Artillery would have said 76-302F .....



Here is a picture of a 1st Infantry Division, 1st Signal Company 1-X-1S
You can see their use of geometric symbols to keep certain identities secret from the Germans.

1st Infantry Division jeep.jpg
1st Infantry Division jeep.jpg (29.79 KiB) Viewed 505 times

Best Regards,
Ray

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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by wostenberg » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:24 pm

Not to change the focus, but I'm restoring my 42 WLA Harley Davidson. I was in the 9th ID in Vietnam and want to honor those who served by naming my bike in a unit someone I met in another forum. It will be C Troop, 9th Recognizance Troop, 9th Infantry Division. So the markings on the front fender will be:
9-X
9-R
C-1
My question is what size lettering?
Thank you
Chip

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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by DogDoc » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:28 pm

I too want to follow my heart, but I also want to be correct. I'm restoring my GPW in honor of my grandfather and in light of that want to use his unit as my bumper markings. He was in "A" battery, 419th FA, 10th AD. I believe the correct marking would be:
10△ - 419F - ☆ - A - 3

Is this correct?

Jay
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Re: Yet another bumper marking question

Post by 70th Division » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:50 am

Hello Jay,


Yes you are 100 percent a-ok with your markings !!

That is exactly how it would have been marked for that unit of your Grandfather's !

Here is a link to a similar marked 12th Armored Division, Field Artillery Unit's Jeep, that was posted here on the G.
Scroll down to the black and white picture...

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=147408&start=150

Also note the " European " style font for the number 4 they used, very interesting.

Good luck on your project !!
Post some pics of it as you go .

Best Regards,
Ray


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