T84 Output Shaft Bearing

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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Frankie
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T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by Frankie » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:57 pm

My "H" manufacture T84 Output shaft has a Federal 1307 F Bearing that appears to be pressed on the shaft. The bearing has a flange on the forward side that is seated against the retaining ring. Wondering if I need to replace this with a standard output bearing so I can use a RFJP oil slinger on the forward end? Is the 1307 a common replacement for the output bearing?
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Frankie
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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by Frankie » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:34 pm

Thanks for your response. I had thought the "spacer" was part of the 1307-F. I'm not sure if I need to replace the 1307-F but they (Federal 1307-F) seem to be uncommon. And it is sealed on only one side. It also appears that the Timken 6307-2RS is double sealed; would it be installed with one seal removed so the bearing would be lubed with transfer oil? I had previously ordered the oil slingers. Should I still install one on the transfer side?

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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by artificer » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:24 pm

I recommend fully sealed bearings. Never remove either of the seals from a fully sealed bearing! They are lifetime lubed.
The slinger can be installed or left out as long as the mainshaft is adjusted to the correct depth in the transmission case.
Adding shims brings the shaft into the transmission & tightens adjustments up around 2/3 while removing shims moves the shaft outwards & loosens 2/3 adjustment.
It is always best to use as few shims as possible.
Thus one or two thicker is better than a number of thinner ones.
Ron has shim sets to correctly set this adjustment.
The bearing needs to be held securely in the transmission case when doing an accurate 2/3 adjustment.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by Frankie » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:26 am

Thanks for the advice. I'll try to follow. Do the shims (if needed) go between the spacer and bearing or oil slinger?

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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by dinof » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:40 am

Lets not forget to tell him to bolt up the transmission to the transfer case on the bench to make sure that the slop on the synchro rings does not change. Sometimes it does matter. I was lucky and had the transmission a little on the tight side, but when I assembled the unit I discovered it was not so tight anymore.
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
1930 Model A Tudor
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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by Chuck Lutz » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:21 am

...also, chuck out "marty, socal" who has a great photo tutorial on how to use sealer to effectively seal the splines in the bearing/gear from allowing oil to migrate also.
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by artificer » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:46 am

Important to remember that shims, spacers facing up to the circlip side [snap ring] of the bearing alter the position of the main shaft & 2/3 setup. Anything on the other side of the bearing [transfer case side] does not.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by Frankie » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:10 pm

As I stated previously, the present bearing is pressed on the shaft; with that in mind, how do I measure for shim(s)? I did review some U-tube vids on T84 overhaul and noted in one that the output bearing was honed on the output shaft surface so that it would slide on easily. Is that what I need to do?

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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by artificer » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:20 pm

An old bearing yes....that makes setting up easier. As said before when setting up the bearing needs to be held tightly in the transmission case with the selected spacers/shims in place between the bearing & circlip.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by artificer » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:28 am

Very strange I recollect LUC the usual protagonist indicating he used a dummy bearing when doing T84 transmissions in a number of earlier threads, when he first started learning about the T84.

LUC would do us all a favour by not trying to denigrate others & just addressing the topic, as he has belatedly tried, after dumping on another well qualified helper.

Non compliance with "G-Etiquette" is why LUC has been BANNED many times to re-emerge under another banner/pseudonym.

Most trained mechanics especially those initially trained on WW2 Jeeps, are half smart & know an old, slightly worn ball bearing, will not add more than 0.001-0.003" to any reading.

This type minor play will not make any appreciable difference to adjusting the T84 mainshaft depth for the correct functioning of 2/3 syncho's.

Pressing a new bearing on, then removing, to adjust shimming is for amateurs/clowns.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by dinof » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:03 am

Luc,
I am just a wannabe that only has done only one T-84 in his life, and I can tell you that the bearing has to be able to slip on and off the get the slop adjusted correctly. By "press fit" you do mean with a press, right? Again, bear with my ignorance because I don't fix cars for a living so I can never, never, do anything correct fixing a simple 1930's era transmission. I mean heck, the "trained mechanic" that did my trans gave me a huge 5,000 service before locking up. But he didn't know the secrets of the French army case that you helped me with. Remember? it was the spacer you put on the second/third rail to control the travel of 3rd gear.

Not trying to start trouble, but I also think that taking out the slinger is a bad move. Just remove a shim.

Regards,
Dino
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by dinof » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:36 pm

Wow Luc, so if the t-CASE gets too full, the hole is at the usual level of the case and it seeps back into the transmission. Question is, if the 3mm hole is big enough to keep up with the rise of oil. But I guess the flow of oil is small, so it's fine.
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
1930 Model A Tudor
1968 Taco Minibike

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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by dinof » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:24 pm

bantamj wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:49 pm
artificer wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:20 pm
An old bearing yes....that makes setting up easier. As said before when setting up the bearing needs to be held tightly in the transmission case with the selected spacers/shims in place between the bearing & circlip.
An old bearing? in my book an old bearing has more play than a new one and will decieve the mechanic.
No need to hone anything unless you are planning to rebuild gearboxes for a living.
If you just want to rebuild the gearbox from your restoration project read below :
The procedure for assembling a T84 is to put in the cluster gear and measure axial play.
The play should be more then 0.06mm and less than 0.2mm
Than install the idler gear.
Pull the shaft from the cluster gear and insert a rod to keep the T-washers in place and allow the cluster gear to drop to the bottom of the casing.
Press on the new bearing on the shaft with spacer and slinger in place.
Insert the shaft in the casing from the rear and slide the first reverse gear, seccond gear with blocking ring and synchro unit over the shaft from inside the casing.
Block the mainshaft bearing in place by temporarelly installing the T18 on the back of the T84 and install the circlip.
Put a new sealed bearing with clip on the inputshaft and insert the pilot rollers in the inputshaft bore, keep them there with a grease plug (see picture).
L1110770.jpg
Install the inputshaft with blocking ring in the casing and lock it there with the retainer.
Check the blocking ring slop, if too much slop, pull the slinger by taking the mainshaft out and press of the bearing.
REMOVE the slinger.
If too tight, do the same but AD a shim.
The right slop is easy, if the mainshaft rotate freely from the input shaft with the slinger in place it is good to go.
If they bind the slinger has to be removed and then all will be OK.
The blocking ring slop is not that critic as most on the g503 are believing it is.
Below a video I made for a g503 member a few years ago. Am sorry for the poor English :oops:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCqG2Ci ... e=youtu.be
Good luck,
Luc
Hi Luc-Let's clear something up. Axial play on the cluster. When you say the play should be more than 0.06mm, I think you meant to say the play should be NO more than 0.06mm and NO less than 0.02mm. In the english/british scales, I think that 0.016 is the max, and I know some here say that's too much so thay get it around .008. Am I correct?

You posted a great video for all here and it's by a guy named Giovanni. Great video
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
1930 Model A Tudor
1968 Taco Minibike

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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by artificer » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:53 pm

Dino is on the ball:
0.06mm = >0.002" way too small
0.02mm = 0.0007" doubtful one could fit that shaft, thrusts & spacer @ all. If possible, metal galling would cause near immediate failure.
One needs a minimum of 0.002" [0.05mm each end] for oil lube clearances
to a max of about 0.004" [0.10mm each end]. IMHO.
Last edited by artificer on Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Tony W
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Re: T84 Output Shaft Bearing

Post by Tony W » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:59 pm

Hello and Merry Christmas to most of the G.
I see Luc has brought up my name in a disgusting rant, referring to myself and others being useless at anything to do with jeeps.
This is why this piece of rat Crimp One Off has been banned from this site so many times, as Artificer referred to previously.
OK Luc, show every one the emails we have sent you and I will show the filth you have sent to me. This is how people like you survive, bullying and standover tactics.
Until Ron decides to ban you again , I will not bother to get involved in your degrading and unnecessary vitriolic ,degrading attacks.
You are a piece of Crimp One Off ,that does not deserve to be on a fantastic site, such as the G503.
Luc , rot in hell

Tony
GPW Feb, 45,
chassis 259112
body 214625
engine MB131277 Overstamped XXX4B1945
ARN 153851


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