Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Greendot319 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:56 am

Hi everyone,

Jeep has done 800 miles since rebuild, original GPW Ross box was rebuilt at the time with what I think is a crown sector shaft, bushings were done and bearings etc.
My original Pitman arm would go down quite a way on the splines and the nut went on fine but there was still about 1cm of spline showing outside of the box, I read the threads about these sector shafts and most people said if it the nut is on fine then dont worry (dont think Artificer did though).
I was worried at the time that with the arm so far out on the shaft and away from the steering box body that quite a leverage could be put through the bushings and housing, 800 miles down the line and the shaft seems to wobble a but in the bushings and the annoying banging noise got to the point that I had to disassemble it to investigate.
Looking for opinions on this, the tits are tight and nothing is worn on the worm, not sure if noise is from the shaft rocking in the bushings or the tits in the worm. The Worm is marked WAT, maybe the worm and sector are not compatible, tits not right size for the worm they bang when they hit the sides of the channel?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoTUWts ... e=youtu.be

https://youtu.be/s2R4fbHOrY8


Clearance around the inner bush
Image

cheers
Matt
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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by artificer » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:22 am

I would never use a sector shaft that did not fully engage with pitman splines as some of these Crown sector's exhibited.

This problem won't cause banging though.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:22 am

Note the end (up and down) play in the worm gear , That should not be so. Does the steering wheel have up and down play? Did you adjust the shims at the top of the gear box when you assembled the steering gear? You will notice quite an improvement after you adjust the play out of the worm shaft.
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HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Greendot319 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:14 am

Thanks Gents, I have had the sector out and it looks nice, no wear to be seen. Joel I dont think there is any up and down movement in the steering worm shaft, it was all set up by the book, feels good and steering wheel and worm rotate nicely when the sector is removed. I think its got to be that play in the bushes that is allowing the sector to move in a way its not supposed to so the tits can bang on the worm. I'll get hold of some new bushes and hopefully they will be a better fit than these ones??
Matt
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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Chuck Lutz » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:49 pm

When installing new steering box sector shaft bushings....you will need to press them into position. Be sure the one with the oil groove cut all the way through is closest to the worm gear. The other bushing has the oil groove cut almost all the way through so install that one with the closed end of the bushing towards the pitman arm. That way the gear oil can migrate through the first bushing and into the second bushing but not out to the oil seal.

Then you will need to ream them to spec. but be sure that the sector shaft you intend on using is the correct size as well since they must fit together correctly.

I have no idea why the mfger Crown uses to produce the sector shafts does not cut the splines far enough back on the shaft for the pitman arm to be set close enough, but you can just about eyeball any jeep steering box with an original vs a Crown and tell based on that alone.
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GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:48 am

The end play in the worm shaft must be an illusion. :wink:
I have a driver to install the bushings in the gear box and use an adjustable reamer to get a more precise fit.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Greendot319 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:01 am

Replacements arriving tomorrow, will keep you all informed
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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Greendot319 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:03 am

The Bushes the dealer has sent me appear to be a sintered bronze and do not have the oil channels in them, what do you guys reckon, useable or not?
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Matt
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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Joe Gopan » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:22 am

Clevite was a major manufacturer of the type bushings used in Jeep Steering Gears.
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HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Greendot319 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:56 pm

Thanks Chaps,
Looking at the bushings again as Joel mentions they actually appear to be an oil impregnated sintered bushings, are they still unusable?
thanks again,
Matt
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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Chuck Lutz » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:09 pm

No.
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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by artificer » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:20 pm

Matt wrote:they actually appear to be an oil impregnated sintered bushings, are they still unusable?
I assume you mean are they usable?
Yes they are, if the fit clearances are correct.

Be aware that fitting on the sector shaft prior to installing will not give exactly the same fit indication as when any bush is installed in the steering box housing.
Don't hammer but pull or push the bushes into place squarely.

Soak in oil overnight or thumb & finger used to compress oil in between & squeezing until oil bubbles through, will impregnate these bushes adequately.
These type bushes/bearings are used in many rack & pinion steering gear applications on modern vehicles.
Q: How do Oil Filled/Sintered Bronze Bearings perform in shock
and impact applications?
A: An automotive steering gear assembly was run to destruction. Conditions
were an impact load of more than 6,000 lbs. PSI at 800 RPM. The sintered
bronze bearing and mating shaft worked perfectly.
Q: How do Oil Filled/Sintered Bronze Bearings perform in
severe duty applications?
A: On a rigorous railroad application Super Oil Filled Bearings
gave an outstanding 631,000 miles of travel over a 57 month period -
and were approved for further mileage!
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Joe Gopan » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:38 am

The G503,M-38/M-38A1, CJ thru CJ-5, 40's Jeepsters, 40's-60's Pick ups and Utility Wagons all had the Ross Cam and Twin Pin Steering Gears with the Clevite style babbit coated bearings.
Fitting these bearings is very simple as the new bushings are simply driven or pressed into the steering box and in the case of the 4 Cyl MB/GPW, CJ-2A thru CJ-5 were then reamed to size per the TM or Jeep Factory Service Manual with the specified 0.875" (7/8") reamer. This resulted in the factory fit and was good for many miles. How long they lasted depended on scheduled Lubrication and PM to check sector shaft adjustment. Installation and reaming is simple and straight forward taking all of 5-10 minutes.
There has been a recent history of some Sector Kits having wrong size bearings, this is a matter to be taken up with your vendor.

Both of my own Jeeps, MB and M-38A1 have Steering gears overhauled in the above manner and still have that factory feel after 40+ years.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Greendot319 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:18 am

Hi all,
The new impregnated bushings were pressed in today. The old ones had splits down one side of them, they came with the repro sector arm and seal kit originally and I dont think the guys reamed them when I had them pressed in, I think they were just a poor fit? The new bushings are much better on the sector with just the right amount of play, I would have liked to have had the type with the oil grooves in them but as these impregnated ones are supposed to be good too then they will do. The steering gear is all back in but I haven't buttoned it all up yet, will save that for another day and keep you all informed how it goes,
cheers
Matt
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Re: Repro Sector shaft problems, now with banging noise!

Post by Greendot319 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:48 am

To add a bit more info, the new bushings slid on the shaft nicely outside of the housing and once they were pressed in to the housing the shaft went in once lubricated in the manner you would expect for a good fit. The shaft moves nicely in the bushings and there isn't any real 'play' anymore or visible clearance, certainly nothing like there was previously, it looks to me to be the correct fit now. Joel and John both seem to agree that the oiled bushings are acceptable for use here and they came from jeffrey engineering in the UK, as Joel and John don't usually agree on anything i'm happy to follow their combined opinion about them and use them but i'm always open to new information if it comes to light, as I said its not all buttoned up yet so can be taken apart again if required!
Thanks
Matt
Better rough than Repro


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