T84 transmission woes - _UPDATED_

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
wc56daveyboy
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by wc56daveyboy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:50 am

Ill do that. ill check for the video.

darn...

well. before I sink to the lowly depths of depression over having to pull this transmission/transfer case back out, let me run this past you much more knowing G503 guys.

Could I have somehow missed something when I assembled the the transfer case to the transmission?

I mean is there something I should have done special when attaching that rear spur gear to the rear output shaft coming from the transmission?

I mean all I did was slide it on , with washer, and tighten down.. and I think there was a cotter pin to hold it. i THINK it bottoms out on a shoulder of the main shaft, right? so tighten and cotter pin and thats it?

could this cause an issue with what I'm seeing (hearing) if this transfer case gear was not properly installed, or I left off anything like a washer or ??

I definatetly put the shift rail pin in properly as I was warned of this not going in right and could fall out.. I made sure it was in correct.
Last edited by wc56daveyboy on Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by fiveftsix » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:22 am

Pulling and dropping the transfer and box is a pain in the bow-tie hence my simply checks first.
Nobody`s infallible not even transmission experts,they can be distracted by a phone call or something else of course.
if you don`t find any thing simple then you should give the guy a call like everyone has mentioned.
the shift plate has no reference to 2nd and top as it is the shift cane that directly engages the second /top shift rail.
so you can basically eliminate the plate unless its rattling about all over the place which I doubt.
installing the gear well that would only possibly interfere with the 2nd/3rd rail only when in second when its farthest back
it is possible for it to make contact with the back of the gear in some cases due to an overly long a sift rail
i`ve had that in the past.
but a thin washer placed behind the gear can over come that.
when it comes to the time of removing the gear you`d see a wear mark on the left rail anyway like a circle cut out the end.
Geoff Bull

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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by artificer » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:34 am

If this noise is associated with rotational movement analyse what is being loaded/used in the offending gears 2/3 & eliminate things that are also being used in 1/R gears, as not being likely.

The synchro assembly is splined to the output shaft & is turning when the clutch is engaged in any gear or the output shaft is being driven by the drive shaft e.g on deceleration.

Think what happens when the engine is running, clutch engaged in Neutral:
1. the input shaft gear is turning the counter gear
2. the reverse idler is always engaged with the counter gear so it is turning
3. second gear is always engaged with the counter gear so it is turning on the mainshaft but is not locked to the output shaft.

Next what happens engine running, clutch disengaged & one is selecting 1st &/or Reverse:
1. All the same things as in Neutral should not be turning
2. First/Reverse sliding gear, splined to the output shaft, is moved to
2a. engage 1st gear on the counter gear
2b. engage Reverse idler.

Next what happens in when the clutch is engaged & 1st or Reverse are selected:
1. All the same things as in Neutral
2. 1st gear on the counter gear [2.665 rotations] is driving 1st sliding gear splined to the output shaft [@ 1 rotation] or
2a. Reverse gear on the counter gear is driving the reverse idler as in N & that idler is driving the 1/R sliding gear splined to the output shaft in the reverse direction. [3.5554:1]

It has been stated that the noise only occurs in 2nd & 3rd gear so what happens when 2 or 3 are selected:
1. All the same things as in Neutral.
1a. The synchro hub splined to the output shaft, the hub's sliding sleeve & associated parts come into play by selecting either 2nd or 3rd gear.
2. As in N, 2nd gear is being driven by the counter gear & free wheeling on the output shaft.
2a. Moving the synchro sliding sleeve to engage 2nd gear causes that gear to become locked to the output shaft via the splined synchro hub. [1.564:1]
3. As in N, 3rd gear is part of the input shaft & in all gears is driving the counter gear.
3a. Moving the synchro sliding sleeve connects input & output shafts directly via the splined synchro hub. [1:1]
3b. The input gear is still turning all the same things as in N starting with the counter gear, 2nd & R idler but none of those things are connected/locked to the output shaft.
3c. 1st reverse sliding gear is splined to & turning with the output shaft but not engaged with or being driven by the counter gear.
Last edited by artificer on Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by wc56daveyboy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:57 pm

thanks all

John... your in depth explanation is superb.. but with all that noted, are you saying what I am experienced could well be a NUMBER of issues, and not pointing to one in particular? or what would be YOUR best guess given those noises in the video?

I did wonder though, when it was assembled, IF the gear selector shifter fork position on the 2nd/3rd shift rail could cause a location of the gear cluster in any way to make these noises.. I mean, could the shifter fork force the 2nd/3rd gear more forward to cause this noise if assembled to far to one side?

I created another video or two to show the 2nd/3rd shifter rail and whats going on in there. maybe one of your guys can pick up something amiss here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntaJ0SKwaA4

Another thought: what about the shift tower itself? a worn shift tower... could this cause these noises? I try moving the cane a bit back and forth when its making noises and engine running but I see no changes.
second video is of the top shifter assembly.. I was told that a worn shifter assembly MIGHT could cause what I'm seeing.. I personally doubt it, but maybe one of you have experienced this phenomenon.

see attached links to this video showing the movement of the cane in and out of the shift tower casting.. it moves about 1/4" total.. is this an excessive amount? could this be an issue?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8I_XrCysQE
Last edited by wc56daveyboy on Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by wc56daveyboy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:05 pm

BTW:

I did get in contact with the rebuilder.

As expected he is willing to work this out.

I sent the video to him, and after viewing he is pretty convinced I'll be pulling it and sending back.

But he wishes to show it to the owner and the actual guy who did the work in his shop.

I expect to hear back from him in a day or so.

In any case he is willing to work with me as expected. I too wish to eliminate ANY other issues before pulling this apart again!!

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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by dinof » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:53 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntaJ0SKwaA4

You were actuating the 1st / reverse rail and not the 2nd / 3rd rail. But the noise is NOT JUST ISOLATED TO THE 2nd / 3rd SHIFT RAIL & COMPONENTS.

It's doing it in neutral as well

I'm glad your transmission guy is going to address your problem. Said that, you still have the fun job of pulling it all back out. Welcome to the club!

You'll have to go far to beat my record of pulling it 5 times in one month and have a torn cartilage knee surgery to prove it. But....don't do that!!!
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by wc56daveyboy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:09 pm

Well well well.

There you have the proof I know so little of these transmissions!

I was thinking all along that was 2nd and third as to its proximity to the shift pattern. If I had thought of it more clearly it would have been evident that it was opposite!

Well thanks.. still the video shows the shift plate in place and shows the tightness in the slot and pivot

3rd and 4th rail much harder to move than this video shows with 1st and reverse.

Thanks for pointing that out

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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by artificer » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:24 pm

I could not identify where the noise was coming from in the first video but it's relative speed corresponded to the gear you were in.
What happened in reverse?
The next video I can't open without registering something.
1/R sliding gear [splined to the output shaft] in your last video is being moved by the selector [the video Dino just posted].
2/3 synchro sleeve needs to be moved by the other selector to obtain either of those gears.
You may understand this better by following the description of what parts are being used @ each stage, to be used in assisting diagnosis.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by wc56daveyboy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:32 pm

Reverse and first there are no noises.

In neutral it's a very slight ticking noise. But it's there as dinof points out.

The noises come from 2nd and third which is defiantly louder and more pronounced than 2nd

There may be confusion caused from
My original post.

I didn't think there was any noise in neutral just yesterday. Today there is.

I also never heard anything when in nuetral all this time. It was only when I took it for its first test ride(s) when it started getting noises.

I noticed on deceleration on the rides most of the noise.

Now that I dare not take it out on the road in real driving I can only leave the transfer in neutral and go they the gears not leaving the driveway, to make that video.

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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by wc56daveyboy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:40 pm

5 times???!!!!!

Woah!!! No thank u!! Your a bigger man than I am!! I would have pushed it over the cliff behind my house at #3!!

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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by artificer » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:46 pm

I thought you indicated the transfer case was in Neutral.
Check the handbrake if this is not the case.
As I said the noise is related to ratio by the sound of things.
Is the noise heard in N a similar noise or something dissimilar?
If the tranny to be pulled & is going back, we need to ensure there is actually something wrong inside the transmission that can be established & fixed by the builder.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by wc56daveyboy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:49 pm

Yes. In that video the transfer case IS in neutral.

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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by wc56daveyboy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:55 pm

The last video is of the top cover, or shift tower with cane. Trying to show the details of the end and show the looseness.

Maybe this is attributing to my inability to shift 2nd and third fully perhaps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8I_XrCysQE

Surprised you can't view... anyone else not able to view this?

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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by artificer » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:08 pm

I can view all now.
With 1/R in neutral show us a video of 2/3 being selected. Use a small piece of hardwood & tap with a hammer until in detent.
With the shifter fork in these 2 & 3 positions see if anything is out of kilter.
Are you saying both 2nd & 3rd can't be fully selected [detented] using the shift cane?
If so put the top on then remove when in the best 2nd & or 3rd position possible & inspect the position of the synchro cone in relation to the gear selected.
Didn't someone mention poor quality detent positions on selector rods?
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?

Post by dinof » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:09 pm

Can we have one more video? I need a shot of it in 2nd gear & in 3rd gear and neutral. I need to see the brass synchro rings and what gaps they have between the hub, and input cone. Just give me a birds eye view, closeup. Give us a minute on each shot.

I'm going on the thought that the slop on the mains shaft/input shaft are way too much in clearance and could be rattling/seizing on the shaft. i'm probably wrong but it's worth a try.
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
1930 Model A Tudor
1968 Taco Minibike


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