T84 transmission woes - _UPDATED_
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T84 transmission woes - _UPDATED_
*** Guys.. update as promised.
I sent back the transmission to the rebuild shop, and after about a week or two, it arrived by Fedex here at home.
Last week I re-installed it, buttoned up the drive train and fired it up. drove around with my home made temporary seat for awhile, and lo and behold, it seems that all is now good.
Cause? well that is the hard part, as they didn't admit to anything on their end as being the cause, but rather a "defective" syncro hub being the reason for all this.. and as they kept saying, a "heavy" forced shift from me causing this. they even included one of the pawls from the syscro as evidence of the issue (I don't see a thing wrong with that pawl, BTW)
I didnt buy the defective syncro hub as being the culprit, of course, and stuck to my argument that I NEVER forced any heavy handed shifting in this jeep.
I also noted to my contact there at the shop the extremely loose fore and aft movement of the bottom cluster, and to BE SURE to look into this.
I did look at the tranny internally before re-installing it, and for sure they took more of the fore and aft slop out than it had previously. They even commented that it was a "Bit" excessive but nothing to cause what I seen... again, I was pretty adamant about that bottom slop, and I really think this was the issue all along..
anyway, its back up and running in the jeep with no issues experienced like prior.
I do wish to thank all who have commented here, and directed me where to look before removing and sending back. At least I had some higher level
of knowledge base on this transmission to talk Intelligently over the phone, rather than "its broke dude... please fix it"
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Guys.. I just got my jeep running with freshly rebuilt t-84 installed.
So now that I got the body on, I am slowly driving it around a bit with makeshift gas can and one seat. Just to debug...
In first or reverse, there are no problems. I let out the clutch and can move along fine..no noises.. nothing to alarm me at all. sounds great!
*** I will say though that It's very "sticky" and tough to get into either gear though. (MAYBE this is in indication of issues too?)
But I attributed this to the fact it's brand new and possibly still very tight and needs to be "broken" in a bit ?
Now that I'm getting more comfortable with taking it out further from home on the back roads here, I'm able to get this up to speed for 2nd and third shifts.
That's where I hear "ticking" or somewhat of a grinding...
I can most notably hear this when in second or third and with in gear say going down hill under deceleration. Not so much upon acceleration, but I do hear it too on acceleration...just not as pronounced, and sometimes goes away.
SO
No noises whatsoever in 1st or reverse.
Acceleration OR deceleration.
But it can be hard to shift into either gear.
(clutch and linkage adjusted fine)
Noises I am describing in 2nd or third... both accel or deceleration..
So I just about rebuilt anything related to engine and drive train at this time.
(Tranny was rebuilt by a reputable t84 transmission rebuild guy, so for now I hope to eliminate the transmission itself as the culprit.. at least for now.. I hope)
Rebuilt engine.. all new everything went in, including clutch, pressure plate, TO bearing etc. all new motor mounts, tranny and transfer mounts, etc.
I did NOT rebuild the top shift tower or replace the internal Plate guide gear shift lever -A7260 . But the transmission was sent out and rebuilt 100%
So I'm wondering, in my limited knowledge of these t-84 transmissions, if a worn shift plate or a top shift tower in need of rebuild would cause what I'm describing
Again.. the only things I didn't replace or rebuild was the shift tower or Plate guide gear shift lever -A7260, as both seemed quite good shape.
the Plate guide gear shift lever was very tight onto the transmission case stud with no sloppiness... I thought it fine in that regard, but maybe its worn in other ways? how to tell?
Could the affore mentioned issues be caused by the shift plate being worn? Or the shift tower itself?
One other thing worthy or mention: The wavy washer under the shift plate.. Shift plate spring washer -635839 ***I don't have one!!
I never knew there even WAS ONE, until looking at replacement parts just today, and the tranny didn't have one when I took apart., so it never crossed my mind...
Could this missing 3 dollar washer be a reason for these noises and maybe crazy/hard shifting?
Thanks.. I am hoping for a miracle and it's something simple at this point. I surely would not relish removing the body and transmission again...
I sent back the transmission to the rebuild shop, and after about a week or two, it arrived by Fedex here at home.
Last week I re-installed it, buttoned up the drive train and fired it up. drove around with my home made temporary seat for awhile, and lo and behold, it seems that all is now good.
Cause? well that is the hard part, as they didn't admit to anything on their end as being the cause, but rather a "defective" syncro hub being the reason for all this.. and as they kept saying, a "heavy" forced shift from me causing this. they even included one of the pawls from the syscro as evidence of the issue (I don't see a thing wrong with that pawl, BTW)
I didnt buy the defective syncro hub as being the culprit, of course, and stuck to my argument that I NEVER forced any heavy handed shifting in this jeep.
I also noted to my contact there at the shop the extremely loose fore and aft movement of the bottom cluster, and to BE SURE to look into this.
I did look at the tranny internally before re-installing it, and for sure they took more of the fore and aft slop out than it had previously. They even commented that it was a "Bit" excessive but nothing to cause what I seen... again, I was pretty adamant about that bottom slop, and I really think this was the issue all along..
anyway, its back up and running in the jeep with no issues experienced like prior.
I do wish to thank all who have commented here, and directed me where to look before removing and sending back. At least I had some higher level
of knowledge base on this transmission to talk Intelligently over the phone, rather than "its broke dude... please fix it"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guys.. I just got my jeep running with freshly rebuilt t-84 installed.
So now that I got the body on, I am slowly driving it around a bit with makeshift gas can and one seat. Just to debug...
In first or reverse, there are no problems. I let out the clutch and can move along fine..no noises.. nothing to alarm me at all. sounds great!
*** I will say though that It's very "sticky" and tough to get into either gear though. (MAYBE this is in indication of issues too?)
But I attributed this to the fact it's brand new and possibly still very tight and needs to be "broken" in a bit ?
Now that I'm getting more comfortable with taking it out further from home on the back roads here, I'm able to get this up to speed for 2nd and third shifts.
That's where I hear "ticking" or somewhat of a grinding...
I can most notably hear this when in second or third and with in gear say going down hill under deceleration. Not so much upon acceleration, but I do hear it too on acceleration...just not as pronounced, and sometimes goes away.
SO
No noises whatsoever in 1st or reverse.
Acceleration OR deceleration.
But it can be hard to shift into either gear.
(clutch and linkage adjusted fine)
Noises I am describing in 2nd or third... both accel or deceleration..
So I just about rebuilt anything related to engine and drive train at this time.
(Tranny was rebuilt by a reputable t84 transmission rebuild guy, so for now I hope to eliminate the transmission itself as the culprit.. at least for now.. I hope)
Rebuilt engine.. all new everything went in, including clutch, pressure plate, TO bearing etc. all new motor mounts, tranny and transfer mounts, etc.
I did NOT rebuild the top shift tower or replace the internal Plate guide gear shift lever -A7260 . But the transmission was sent out and rebuilt 100%
So I'm wondering, in my limited knowledge of these t-84 transmissions, if a worn shift plate or a top shift tower in need of rebuild would cause what I'm describing
Again.. the only things I didn't replace or rebuild was the shift tower or Plate guide gear shift lever -A7260, as both seemed quite good shape.
the Plate guide gear shift lever was very tight onto the transmission case stud with no sloppiness... I thought it fine in that regard, but maybe its worn in other ways? how to tell?
Could the affore mentioned issues be caused by the shift plate being worn? Or the shift tower itself?
One other thing worthy or mention: The wavy washer under the shift plate.. Shift plate spring washer -635839 ***I don't have one!!
I never knew there even WAS ONE, until looking at replacement parts just today, and the tranny didn't have one when I took apart., so it never crossed my mind...
Could this missing 3 dollar washer be a reason for these noises and maybe crazy/hard shifting?
Thanks.. I am hoping for a miracle and it's something simple at this point. I surely would not relish removing the body and transmission again...
Last edited by wc56daveyboy on Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
Did yet another test before wrapping up in the garage tonight.
Started engine. Put transfer case in neutral so I would be able to go thru all gears without being on the road.
Again... 1st and reverse:
No issues or noises as I let out the clutch.
2nd gear same noise as I let out clutch. Slight grinding
Same with 3rd gear.
Tried back and forth between 2nd and third a few times. Sometimes it was noisier than others. Varied.
I intend to open it up tommorow and look inside.
I'll measure the shift plate opening . All posts I have read says it should measure about 5/8".
That right?
Anyone have an extra wavy washer so I can try that first? I would order the darn 3 dollar part but it would cost 12 to get it in the mail.
Maybe I'll call Ron and see if he can slip in an envelope !!! On line payment makes it a hefty shipping for even small items.
Started engine. Put transfer case in neutral so I would be able to go thru all gears without being on the road.
Again... 1st and reverse:
No issues or noises as I let out the clutch.
2nd gear same noise as I let out clutch. Slight grinding
Same with 3rd gear.
Tried back and forth between 2nd and third a few times. Sometimes it was noisier than others. Varied.
I intend to open it up tommorow and look inside.
I'll measure the shift plate opening . All posts I have read says it should measure about 5/8".
That right?
Anyone have an extra wavy washer so I can try that first? I would order the darn 3 dollar part but it would cost 12 to get it in the mail.
Maybe I'll call Ron and see if he can slip in an envelope !!! On line payment makes it a hefty shipping for even small items.
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- G-Colonel
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
In my opinion, the wavy washer will have nothing to do with your noise. I did not install the wavy washer on my rebuild either. I replaced everything but the shift forks in my tranny when I rebuilt it and it is as quite as a baby when sleeping, shifts great and no jumping out of second gear going down hills or when accelerating.
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
As cjv-35 said, the wavy washer will not cure the noise, or stop the hard shifts. Leave it out for now.
It would be great to see a video of you shifting the jeep and hearing the noise. Also if you can show detailed pictures of the underneath of the tower showing the guide plate that is riveted to it with the shifter cane, and a few pics of the shifter plate might help us more.
You are gently shifting to 2nd & 3rd without quickly throwing the shifter aren't you? This is not a Tremec or T-56 transmission!
It would be great to see a video of you shifting the jeep and hearing the noise. Also if you can show detailed pictures of the underneath of the tower showing the guide plate that is riveted to it with the shifter cane, and a few pics of the shifter plate might help us more.
You are gently shifting to 2nd & 3rd without quickly throwing the shifter aren't you? This is not a Tremec or T-56 transmission!
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
1930 Model A Tudor
1968 Taco Minibike
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
1930 Model A Tudor
1968 Taco Minibike
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
Thanks to both replies.
Well yes I am as gently as possible trying to shift, but it is not so smooth. It "sticks" is the best explanation I can give.
It doesn't like going into gear easily.
1st and second go in easy enough.
Now the noise is another matter and only the noise is heard when in 2nd or 3rd.
No noise in neutral what so ever.
To me it does not sound like a bearing grinding. It darn well better not as it's a fresh rebuild!
So both of you said the wavy washer shouldn't be a contributor to my issues stated. Why?
I mean I'm also reading any and all
Posts on transmission problems and I have read a few guys saying after repositioning wavy washer their shifts were then smooth.
Or replacing a worn shifter plate made shifting easier too.
I guess instead of guessing I'll just order a wavy washer and new plate to at least elimate those possibilities.
I'll look at the inside if shift tower as well and report.
Oh.. no it's a true t84 tranny
Well yes I am as gently as possible trying to shift, but it is not so smooth. It "sticks" is the best explanation I can give.
It doesn't like going into gear easily.
1st and second go in easy enough.
Now the noise is another matter and only the noise is heard when in 2nd or 3rd.
No noise in neutral what so ever.
To me it does not sound like a bearing grinding. It darn well better not as it's a fresh rebuild!
So both of you said the wavy washer shouldn't be a contributor to my issues stated. Why?
I mean I'm also reading any and all
Posts on transmission problems and I have read a few guys saying after repositioning wavy washer their shifts were then smooth.
Or replacing a worn shifter plate made shifting easier too.
I guess instead of guessing I'll just order a wavy washer and new plate to at least elimate those possibilities.
I'll look at the inside if shift tower as well and report.
Oh.. no it's a true t84 tranny
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
It's early here in Oklahoma and reading posts until I get up and get to the garage to take top tranny cover off for inspection of tower cane , cane guide plate, and gear shift plate.
(I'll post pics of these parts when I do)
In the meantime my mind is trying to get around the noises I am experiencing and thinking of a posibility:
How's this for a "theory" fellas;
If the guide plate attached to tower, and /or cane and/or shift plate are worn enough where it's possible that it's not allowing a full "throw" in the gear selection process.. or not completely engaging either 2nd or 3rd gear. Possibly "just" enough where one gear it touching the other cussing this "ticking" or slight intermittent grinding?
Just thinking out loud here.. if a part is worn enough to a point where it doesn't fully seat the gear selection could these noises be a result?
I'll try and get a short video as well..
(I'll post pics of these parts when I do)
In the meantime my mind is trying to get around the noises I am experiencing and thinking of a posibility:
How's this for a "theory" fellas;
If the guide plate attached to tower, and /or cane and/or shift plate are worn enough where it's possible that it's not allowing a full "throw" in the gear selection process.. or not completely engaging either 2nd or 3rd gear. Possibly "just" enough where one gear it touching the other cussing this "ticking" or slight intermittent grinding?
Just thinking out loud here.. if a part is worn enough to a point where it doesn't fully seat the gear selection could these noises be a result?
I'll try and get a short video as well..
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
Both second and top involve the syncro hub, first and reverse do not.
stiff shifting may well be caused by new poppet springs and balls in a newly rebuilt box if new rails were installed too.
it could also be that the interlock pin is tight as well.
The hub must be engaging either second or top or it would throw out almost immediately especially on deceleration more so on second than on top gear.
the ticking sound could be the second/top shifter rail just touching the output gear in the transfer case when in second gear.
one thing I will add that this may have nothing to do with the transmission and simply be something totally unrelated.
is the top rod support mounted to the body and the top of the rad ?
it`s quite possible the movement of the engine and trans is enough for the fan to just clip the fan shroud !!!!
or a fraying fan belt can give the same ticking result.
Geoff Bull
stiff shifting may well be caused by new poppet springs and balls in a newly rebuilt box if new rails were installed too.
it could also be that the interlock pin is tight as well.
The hub must be engaging either second or top or it would throw out almost immediately especially on deceleration more so on second than on top gear.
the ticking sound could be the second/top shifter rail just touching the output gear in the transfer case when in second gear.
one thing I will add that this may have nothing to do with the transmission and simply be something totally unrelated.
is the top rod support mounted to the body and the top of the rad ?
it`s quite possible the movement of the engine and trans is enough for the fan to just clip the fan shroud !!!!
or a fraying fan belt can give the same ticking result.
Geoff Bull
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
thank you for your reply as well.
Yes.. new box.. all new shift rails.. new poppets.. everything should be new in there.
your right: the 1st and second shifts do NOT need the syncro hub, so perhaps thats where I should look for troubles?
I did as I said I would in an earlier post and tear into this transmission from the top to see whats up..
OK... lets look at a few pics I took.
first, I took off the top cover (shift tower) and did a cursory look. nothing seemed out of order on first glance. Nothing broken or not in its proper place.
I took off the gear shift lever plate.. it was nice and snug on the raised mounting boss where it pivots on.. so thats not loose.
I noticed that the shift plate end tab, which engages in the slot on the shift rail, was sort of loose, oh, maybe about a 1/8" or so..
I took a few measurements, of the tab end of this shift plate... see pic titled " shift plate tab"
measurement was 0.569... not sure how worn this is compared to new. and how tight it should be in comparison to the shift rail slot.
I also looked at the side profile of the same shift plate.
this appears to be a hybrid, or modified version of the earlier with full depth shifting cane area to drop into, vs the later with just two bent tabs down creating the recess for the canes shift tab to fit into.
see pic titles "shift plate profile"
that "recess" was also measured and found to be 0.6345" see pic titled "Shift plate slot measurement"
I think ill limit the pcs to 3 per reply...
Yes.. new box.. all new shift rails.. new poppets.. everything should be new in there.
your right: the 1st and second shifts do NOT need the syncro hub, so perhaps thats where I should look for troubles?
I did as I said I would in an earlier post and tear into this transmission from the top to see whats up..
OK... lets look at a few pics I took.
first, I took off the top cover (shift tower) and did a cursory look. nothing seemed out of order on first glance. Nothing broken or not in its proper place.
I took off the gear shift lever plate.. it was nice and snug on the raised mounting boss where it pivots on.. so thats not loose.
I noticed that the shift plate end tab, which engages in the slot on the shift rail, was sort of loose, oh, maybe about a 1/8" or so..
I took a few measurements, of the tab end of this shift plate... see pic titled " shift plate tab"
measurement was 0.569... not sure how worn this is compared to new. and how tight it should be in comparison to the shift rail slot.
I also looked at the side profile of the same shift plate.
this appears to be a hybrid, or modified version of the earlier with full depth shifting cane area to drop into, vs the later with just two bent tabs down creating the recess for the canes shift tab to fit into.
see pic titles "shift plate profile"
that "recess" was also measured and found to be 0.6345" see pic titled "Shift plate slot measurement"
I think ill limit the pcs to 3 per reply...
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- Shift plate slot measurement.JPG (110.72 KiB) Viewed 1458 times
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- shift plate profile.JPG (74.12 KiB) Viewed 1458 times
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- shift plate tab.JPG (114.64 KiB) Viewed 1458 times
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
ok.. so now I took measurements of the cane lever end tab and how it fits in the slot, or recess in the shift plate
end tab on shifter cane measures 0.6245"
the slot, or recess in the shift plate is 0.6345... pretty tight.
so all looked fine, BUT for the shifter plate end tab "sloppiness" in the 2nd/3rd shifter rail.
so I decided to take my trusty welded and add a little material to the end tab, effectively tightening up this slot to tab clearance. see if it would help..
it made no difference once the top was reassembled to the tranny and run. so. the slop was fixed...BUT no change in noises.
I made a short video and published on U-tube for all to hear:
https://youtu.be/S0TRnUyZZ8I
I did add more 90 weight, just to see and nothing changed
can anyone fathom a guess as to where I should look next?
I still haven't added a wavy washer yet either!
OH.. per the last post.. no.. I hadn't thought about the stay arm to radiator! I dont have one it place either!
darn... wouldnt that be kick in the &*&&* if that was the issue.. Ill try again later and see, but in all honesty I am hearing transmission noises, and as much as I would LOVE for it to be as simple and the ratior making vibrations, I aint getting my hopes up yet!! still Ill check it.. thanks for that suggestion
end tab on shifter cane measures 0.6245"
the slot, or recess in the shift plate is 0.6345... pretty tight.
so all looked fine, BUT for the shifter plate end tab "sloppiness" in the 2nd/3rd shifter rail.
so I decided to take my trusty welded and add a little material to the end tab, effectively tightening up this slot to tab clearance. see if it would help..
it made no difference once the top was reassembled to the tranny and run. so. the slop was fixed...BUT no change in noises.
I made a short video and published on U-tube for all to hear:
https://youtu.be/S0TRnUyZZ8I
I did add more 90 weight, just to see and nothing changed
can anyone fathom a guess as to where I should look next?
I still haven't added a wavy washer yet either!
OH.. per the last post.. no.. I hadn't thought about the stay arm to radiator! I dont have one it place either!
darn... wouldnt that be kick in the &*&&* if that was the issue.. Ill try again later and see, but in all honesty I am hearing transmission noises, and as much as I would LOVE for it to be as simple and the ratior making vibrations, I aint getting my hopes up yet!! still Ill check it.. thanks for that suggestion
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- cane lever end tab.JPG (96.38 KiB) Viewed 1456 times
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
shifter tower underside pics..
took measurements for you to see.
does this look worn out in any of the dimensions shown?
I did check the guide plate attached to shift tower cover casting, and its tight and NOT loose at all.
took measurements for you to see.
does this look worn out in any of the dimensions shown?
I did check the guide plate attached to shift tower cover casting, and its tight and NOT loose at all.
- Attachments
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- Shift tower plate slot length.JPG (114.39 KiB) Viewed 1455 times
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- Shift tower plate width slot.JPG (131.49 KiB) Viewed 1455 times
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- Tower shift slot and lever end.JPG (115.52 KiB) Viewed 1455 times
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
Well one things for sure....Forget about the shift plate, tower cane, wavy washer, guide plate. The pics prove that.
You mentioned that the trans was rebuilt by a reputable T-84 transmission guy. Time to give him a call. He needs to get involved with his work. If he is anything reputable, he will take care of this. I know how much a pain in the A_ss it is to pull it out, but it sounds like it's going down that road.
I want to say many things that can be causing this. Even a way out of clearance cluster gear is even possible causing gears to slightly touch/ engage.
That noise is not good. Time to make that phone call.
You mentioned that the trans was rebuilt by a reputable T-84 transmission guy. Time to give him a call. He needs to get involved with his work. If he is anything reputable, he will take care of this. I know how much a pain in the A_ss it is to pull it out, but it sounds like it's going down that road.
I want to say many things that can be causing this. Even a way out of clearance cluster gear is even possible causing gears to slightly touch/ engage.
That noise is not good. Time to make that phone call.
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
1930 Model A Tudor
1968 Taco Minibike
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
1930 Model A Tudor
1968 Taco Minibike
- Chuck Lutz
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
A proper rebuild would have smoother the burrs out of the end of the shift cane and I would have replaced the plate riveted to the bottom of the tower if it was my T84. the "fingers" I believe should be 3/8" apart and slightly rounded. This one is beat to hellandgone from Bubba trying to throw shifts or from some one who does not know the T84 has an "H" shift pattern and thinks it has an "X" pattern.
However....that is incidental to the problem....as dinof has suggested, call the rebuilder and ask how he will fix the problem because noise usually equates to WEAR and that means it will not give you good service or may blow up at some point.
However....that is incidental to the problem....as dinof has suggested, call the rebuilder and ask how he will fix the problem because noise usually equates to WEAR and that means it will not give you good service or may blow up at some point.
Chuck Lutz
GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947
GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
So you say everything new including the box. Some one posted on here awhile back that the repro tranny box's are out of spec compared to the originals. Do a search on this forum. Might be your problem. As dinof said, looks like it will have to come out for proper inspection and repair. I know all about it. Third time was a charm for me. Hope you get your troubles ironed out.
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1950 cjv-35/u # 10676
1945 gemco 1/4 ton trailer # 2324
kf6wpk
1945 ford gpw # 269325/with working BC-659J radio
1950 cjv-35/u # 10676
1945 gemco 1/4 ton trailer # 2324
kf6wpk
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
oh boy... I was hoping and praying for something simple I can address from the top cover removed, and not remove the transmission completly.
still, I gave the re-builder a shout and sent him the video as well.
yes.. I beleive that he used one of them aftermarket transmission cases.. not the original I sent because it was cracked and un-servicable.
any other guesses from the forum? I mean it looks like Ill be pulling this out again... but what would the cause be ? clearances on these aftermarket cases?
or other?
still, I gave the re-builder a shout and sent him the video as well.
yes.. I beleive that he used one of them aftermarket transmission cases.. not the original I sent because it was cracked and un-servicable.
any other guesses from the forum? I mean it looks like Ill be pulling this out again... but what would the cause be ? clearances on these aftermarket cases?
or other?
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Re: T84 transmission woes - Worn parts or?
Google "gusti" and "t84" and check the you tube videos he posted...there are several....he does not do a voice-over but you can see where he is going with setting up the slop on 3rd gear blocking rings....and how much of the three plates on the HUB you should be able to see when the trans is in 2nd or 3rd. That alone may be informative...post pics of what you find if it does not match where he is going in his rebuilds....
Chuck Lutz
GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947
GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947
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