Did I Burn Up a New Voltage Regulator?

[AugieAscot]

I keep and maintain my Dad’s 1944 Willys MB for him. He’s a Korean war era Marine. I’m getting it ready for the local 4th of July parade again. This MB does not have the original wire harness, it’s all homemade. When I got it running again about 4 years ago I just replaced wires that the squirrels had chewed on. I’ve attached a beautiful schematic of the homemade wiring harness below. Ok on to the problem.
This past week I installed a new voltage regulator, a French built NOS from the 1950s or possibly the early 1960s. After I installed the new regulator the jeep wouldn’t start. I soon found out why, I had connected the 3 wires in the wrong positions. The BATT, ARM, and FIELD terminals are in different positions then the old regulator. I knew this but I still connected them wrong. In a rush I guess. I know you don’t get second chances with most electrical mistakes so I expected the worst. I connected the 3 wires correctly and she fired right up, only problem was there was no indication on my voltmeter that the generator was being charged. That began two nights of searching the G and troubleshooting trying to figure out if I had damaged the GEN or the VR. I didn’t have any luck, maybe they’re both damaged I figured. So I did the following:


1. I removed the generator and took it to the local guy that rebuilt it. He connected it to 6v directly to it and it motored/spun. He told me that means it’s working. I’ve read that here also. He also told me my generator is a 12v gen.
2. When the Neg battery terminal is connected (Pos already connected) there is no spark.
3. Polarized the generator by disconnecting the wire connected to the Field terminal on the generator and touching jumper wire to it from the positive battery terminal.
4. Battery voltage is 6.38v when tested with a digital meter, 6.25v with an analog meter.
5. When I turn the ignition key is turned to the run position the Amp gauge remains at 0, most of the time. About 25% of the time it goes to -5.
6. Key in run, engine not running, press on brake pedal and the Amp gauge moves to -5. Foot off the brake pedal Amp gauge to zero. Headlights ON, Amp gauge to -15, headlights OFF it goes back to 0.
7. Starting the engine the Amp gauge wiggles between 0 and -5. Engine starts on first or second crank 90% of the time.
8. At idle, the battery voltage is the same, the meter (analog) does not move from 6.25v. If I increase the RPM there is no change in the voltage reading.
9. At idle I ran a jumper wire from the + terminal on the battery to the F terminal on the Voltage Regulator. This caused the AMP gauge to go back and forth from -15 to 0.
10. I popped the seal on the voltage regulator and inspected for obvious damage. None found, looks brand new. I cleaned the points with 400 grit sandpaper and then with a strip of cardboard to clean them.
11. I started the engine and repeated items 5 through 9 again. No change in results.

Items 2 through 11 where done this morning again to help me write this post and provide information to those who might be able to help. Item 9 really has me worried.
Thanks for taking the time to read and for any ideas you may have.
augie

[J-C]

Augie

We have generator type A and generator type B
The VR, also we have two types, one for each type of generator.
Are your couple Genny + VR correct? Is the new french VR correct for the genny?
In case you mix the types, there will be no current flowing in the field coil and thus no magnetism in the poles.
Another point :Is the generator 12 volts realy?

[AugieAscot]

J-C,
Thanks for the reply and thoughts. I'll go by the generator rebuilders tomorrow and see if he knows if the generator is an A or B type. The VR is for a B.
This just may be the problem. Thanks for the idea!
augie

[Chuck Lutz]

Take the VR with you also....old time shops may have a jig to set up the genny & VR on an electric motor to turn the genny and have a 6-volt battery (take yours just in case) and have the gauges to dial in the VR.

[dinof]

How is this all supposed to work with a 12 volt generator, and a 6 volt VR & battery?

[AugieAscot]

Chuck, Dino, thanks. I'll find out tomorrow I hope. It's to late to remove the Gen and VR tonight. I work to slow. The rebuilder has told me to bring the jeep in and he'd troubleshoot it. But it's about a 10 mile drive and I'm not sure I could make it as is. If he says I can just bring the Gen and VR and he can sort it out I'll do that. If not I'll trailer it over there. Trailer is stored at a buddies house so that's more time and working around schedules.
I'll post what I find out. Thanks again.
augie

[Tony W]

Hi Augie
I had exactly the same problem as yourself. I brought a 6V French regulator. It,s charging rate was all over the place, mostly sitting on about 20Amps continuously. I tried to adjust it myself but could not get right.
I called a mobile auto electrician who has done some work on my Landcruiser, and he came with the right tools.
He used his ampmeter and voltmeter and adjusted the regulator, everything now working as should be.
Sometimes it takes someone with the right tools and KNOWLEDGE to get the job done correctly.
Good luck
Tony

[AugieAscot]

Thanks Tony!

[AugieAscot]

Good morning! I just did a test on my Generator I found at:http://www.cj3a.info/tech/charging.html
This is done with the mete connected to the F and A terminals on the Gen.
“With the armature out of the circuit repeat the first two tests. Check the resistance from the field terminal to the armature terminal. For a Type A generator this measurement will remain unchanged (less than 10 ohms) as seen in the photo. This is because internally the field is connected to the armature terminal. If this was a Type B generator the reading would be an open circuit, or no continuity.”
I have continuity from my F terminal to my A terminal on my generator. Time to get a type B.
Thanks Tony! It's 4:55am here, time to go to work.
augie

[AugieAscot]

Rebuilt Type B Generator ordered and on the way. Lets see if I can correctly install it when it comes.
Thanks for the help guys.
Please stand by
augie

[Tony W]

Hey Augie
Whether my regulator was not adjusted properly at the factory I don't know.
I do know others have had trouble adjusting the Frog regulators.
Don't stuff it mate. Sometimes these things are best left to a good auto electrician. A few dollars spent here will give you a lifetime of Jeep pleasure.
Tony

[AugieAscot]

Well the generator arrived yesterday and I just finished installing and polarizing it (disconnected the Field from the VR and touched it to the Batt terminal on the VR, gave me a good jolt by the way). I had 6.2 volts at the Battery before starting. Started her up and the volt meter did not move, didn’t matter if I increased RPM, turned the lights on and increased RPM, no movement on my multimeter. The Amp gauge moved to -15 when I turned the lights on, but never went to the + side after I brought the RPM up.
I’m gonna call it a night a work on it in the morning again. Thanks for reading.
Tony, I’m liking your idea of calling in a pro.
One funny thing about the generator, the top tang (the two bottom tangs connect the GEN to the bracket on the block), the one common to the arm used to tighten the belt, I think it has metric threads. I didn’t have a fastener that would fit the threads, course or fine. I used a ¼ bolt (fits snugly through the hole) and nut tonight until I get a proper size metric bolt.
augie

[Wolfman]

An observation.
You have now determined the original generator is a Type A and you have replaced it with a Type B.
Did you replace the regulator as well ??
Type A and Type B regulators are different, same as the generators.
Quick check. Now that you know you have a Type B generator, even if you have a type A regulator, the cut relay in both type regulators will still respond to generator output.
Start the engine. Set to a fast idle. Remove the field wire from the generator and use a jumper wire from B+ to the field terminal. This should put the generator to full output. Amp and voltage. This will verify the generator is OK and the problem is with the regulator.

[Chuck Lutz]

Like I said before....

Take BOTH the VR and the genny to an old-time shop to have the regulator set up to work with YOUR 6-volt genny.

PS...the French VRs often need to have the contacts cleaned to make them work...THEN and adjustment is the way to go.

[AugieAscot]

New Gen is a Type B, NOS French VR is a Type B.

Start the engine. Set to a fast idle. Remove the field wire from the generator and use a jumper wire from B+ to the field terminal. This should put the generator to full output. Amp and voltage. This will verify the generator is OK and the problem is with the regulator.

Is B+ the VR Batt terminal? If yes, then I just tried this and it did not close the contacts on the cutout. I did not look at the Amp gauge.
Here is what I did earlier this morning:
Disconnected the battery and removed the the CVR cover. Started the engine and observed the Cutout, no movement. incresed RPM, no change. Next I checked the gaps on the armature with the points open and also the points themselves per TM-10-1513. All three were within tolerance.
I again ran some very fine emery cloth between all three and then cleaned with a piece of brown paper. With the engine running there was no change, no movement anywhere on the CVR. So, with the engine still running I closed the armature (on the Cutout) by pushing down on it with a wooden brush handle. When I did this I could feel the magnetic attraction close the air gap and the points closed. Doing this caused the dash Amp gauge to peg at +30 and there was no other movement on the CVR. I shut the engine off and the air gap opened up on the circuit breaker armature and the points opened back up also. Nothing was smoking, no burn smell in the air either: )
I then made a couple of dedicated ground wires, one running from the Generator GRN screw to the engine ground cable (that goes to tab on the bottom of the battery shelve) and another from one of the 4 CVR mounting bolts to the engine ground cable. I then started the engine, turned the lights on (Amp gauge to -15), and from under the hood increased RPM while watching the cutout, no movement. So I pushed down again on the top of the Cutout, it closed and the dash Amp gauge went to +30 (pegged). Again there was no other movement on the CVR, the current limiting regulator points remained open and the voltage regulator points remained closed.
Chuck, I was still having fun this morning and it's Sunday, all the 6 volt mom & pop shops are closed. Tomorrow I may call around and see who can help.
Thanks for the help guys. And if you have anymore ideas, I'm still listening.
Augie