Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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hopps1945
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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by hopps1945 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:33 pm

We all have been asking the big dealers and those that have spent a lot of resources and money to show us, none do. Why, because they spent the time to research it, why give it out for free? None of the dealers say what kind of "Mil-Spec" they use but we trust them?

From my research into "Mil-Spec" canvas (5-6 years worth), WWII "Mil-Spec" is no longer available in the US. That spec went obsolete in the 1950's. Working with current canvas suppliers, chemicals used back then are not allowed anymore. So anything made today will never meet the WWII "Mil-Spec"

We lay our faith in the big three (Beachwood, WeeBee and New Life) but they too don't tell us what they use......

Heck, I have a roll of 12.29 oz army duck "Mil-Spec" canvas probably form the 1950-60s and it I would say is very brown vs what we we consider Olive Drab. The spec that it was made to called for Olive Drab. So we all know there is a huge shade difference when it comes to olive drab.

I have no copies of specs, ord documents or drawings.. just information from the internet, other people interested, books and canvas suppliers/finishers.
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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by Farrell Fox » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:27 pm

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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by Chuck Lutz » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:22 pm

This thread is like the Paint Threads....long on hyperbole, short on FACTS.

You guys hash it out....I like to see a bit more reality before shelling out hundreds of bucks myself..."because I said so".

Just the facts, ma'am......(not the opinions).
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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by Farrell Fox » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:43 pm

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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:01 pm

The color and material used on Weebie and New Life Tops suit me. I have just enough backgound on GI canvas to understand the product and appreciate what is available.
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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by hopps1945 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:13 pm

Ben Dover wrote:The color and material used on Weebie and New Life Tops suit me. I have just enough backgound on GI canvas to understand the product and appreciate what is available.
So at the end of the day, it all comes down to what the customer wants. Most customers are uninformed and will go with whatever they dealer sells because THEY say it is Mil-Spec so it must be correct.......


Those two companies put out great products BUT neither will give you the cold hard facts about their canvas. That would be a terrible business move on their part........ :roll:
Chuck Lutz wrote:I like to see a bit more reality before shelling out hundreds of bucks myself..."because I said so".

Just the facts, ma'am......(not the opinions).
So a quick question for you Chuck, if I recall in this long post, or maybe in another one, you mention you own Weebee products. What was it they did to convince you to go with them? What facts did Dave give you? I'm asking because I'm at that point in my restoration to purchase canvas and I would like to be an informed customer.
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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by Joe Gopan » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:57 pm

I believe the color ID for the available O.D. is 34087, if the lighting is just right, it looks awful close. New Life and Weebie are reputable canvas shops and this is the best they can get. There is no need to pressure them for information as they do not manufacture it. I have used this canvas on other MV's for a few decades, it is army issue and weathers the same as older vintage GI canvas.
Question for Nick, what would you suggest the canvas suppliers do if the market for canvas in a color that pleases you does not satisfy the minimum amount to justify manufacture?
You also remarked that "Mil Spec" canvas has not been around since the 50's. Do you have any idea where the Army got all that nice OD canvas used on the hundreds of thousands 50's-70's M-Series trucks, trailers and and Jeeps such as M-35, M-37, M-38, M-38A1,M-54, M-100, M-151, M-211, etc?
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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by hopps1945 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:17 am

Ben Dover wrote:
Question for Nick, what would you suggest the canvas suppliers do if the market for canvas in a color that pleases you does not satisfy the minimum amount to justify manufacture?
You also remarked that "Mil Spec" canvas has not been around since the 50's. Do you have any idea where the Army got all that nice OD canvas used on the hundreds of thousands 50's-70's M-Series trucks, trailers and and Jeeps such as M-35, M-37, M-38, M-38A1,M-54, M-100, M-151, M-211, etc?
No, no, no, no Joel, re-read my comment. The WWII Spec was cancelled in the 1950's. There are hundreds of other military specifications for canvas out there. The specifications for finish changed constantly from the 50's through today. Mostly the chemicals used for finishing. Here is my original comment below for your re-reading pleasure:
hopps1945 wrote: WWII "Mil-Spec" is no longer available in the US. That spec went obsolete in the 1950's. Working with current canvas suppliers, chemicals used back then are not allowed anymore. So anything made today will never meet the WWII "Mil-Spec"
There is tons of information via the internet regarding the government contracts from WWII till today regarding canvas. We have people that say they want the"Facts" but in the end, we trust the canvas suppliers when they say it is military spec canvas. What spec are they using? Heck there are quite a few non military spec canvas treatments out there that do the same job, i.e. are made to meet, fire, water, mildew but do not meet a specific Military Specification there forward cannot be listed as "Mil-Spec" but they still have that wonderful odor that we love about canvas :D

Joel, I have no problem with their product, Weebee is right at the top of the list for me as they do have a great color.
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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:30 am

The 50s? I get it now, thanks for the clarification. WWII color? Wouldn't that be nice. WWII Seats? The late MB seat cover set I have that was made by New Life are perfection, no cotton thread tho. Good question to ask when ordering.
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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by Chuck Lutz » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:09 am

Nick...when I needed to buy seats for my jeep the two big dogs on the block were Beechwood and WeeBee. Beechwood canvas wasn't even CLOSE to anything like an "Olive Drab" canvas so I eliminated it outright. With usually around a hundred MVs at the MVCC meets you could check out what guys had, talk over whot people thought was CORRECT or at least correct-er than other canvas and make your decisions based on that.

Dave P. was attending Tower Park in those days and I could simply walk over and check out his products. I don't know if you want to call that choosing a product based on default or not but I fully understood that a simple set of cushions without horsehair, burlap and zippered pockets would do OK for my motorpool GPW....If I had intended on doing a restoration more detailed I might have wanted those features and been ready to pay for them.

I think that's what it boils down to...you got enough cash then a vendor can find those featured items to use when making some canvas tops or seats.

Lacking any Ford Drawings or Willys Drawings or QMC Drawings, all I can do is to look at ORIGINAL canvas and compare that to what the big dogs are selling. If you do that then you can pick between the two I mentioned pretty easily. After that it's down to you paying for features not included in what they usually sell.

Like paint....you choose what you like more often since DOCUMENTATION on the color of the thread or stuff like that isn't forthcoming from ANYONE.
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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by Joe Gopan » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:47 am

I just double checked my NOS Canvas Doors Tops and side curtains for M-38/M-38A1 the shade of OD varies for each different manufacturer.
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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by Chuck Lutz » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:51 am

Perhaps one reason Joel finds noticable differences in the canvas tops/doors for M-38/M38A1 series vehicles might just be that while in WWII, the gov't provided the canvas to Willys and Ford.....in the post war era perhaps the gov't had gotten out of the canvas procurement business and just provided the requirements for the canvas on those jeeps. While I would fully expect the gov'ts supplier in WWII to have some subtle dye-lot variations....once Willys was allowed to purchase and provide the canvas for those post-war jeeps, they may have even obtained them from different suppliers which might account for even wider differences between the items he has.
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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by Joe Gopan » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:05 am

There were variations in WWII also, and it has been hashed over and over and over.
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Re: Does Anyone Make a Correct Canvas Top or Seats??

Post by gearhead » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:51 pm

This "discussion", I am using the term very loosely, will not be ended.
I happen to agree with Joel, too many variations in color over the course of the war.
Best to have the most accurate assembly with the "best" canvas available.

My mentor, has quite a collection of original canvas from WW2, there are visible color differences.

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