The art of painting my WWII Jeep

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
Niblet
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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by Niblet » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:16 am

Well I was and still am looking for something top notch to restore,,but all I'm seeing out there is .......well not much to work with
1945 Willys MB
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Re: The art of painting any WWII Jeep

Post by lucakiki » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:38 am

dpcd67 wrote:Paint shade is a topic that can be and has been discussed ad nauseam and there are those who have built entire companies and product lines on it. For me, I think 33070 is the best matching shade for MY GPW. (For those who research paint numbers, that is not even a WW2 paint code, but that is immaterial.) There was supposed to be only one shade of flat OD paint in WW2, but that didn't happen. Back then, paint was mixed by humans and the shades varied. Some will say that the TM9 shade is the only correct one. To me and my jeep, it isn't.
Paint your jeep whatever color you like, except YELLOW. Unless you are restoring a school bus. Or gray. Or blue.....
Not to be argumentative, but I have read that the exact formula for the O.D. paint does exist, so a correct shade has to follow that formula.
Jim Gilmore ( copyright) did post such an important fact on this site.
There is not, to my knowledge, such a thing as an early vs. late Olive Drab shade.

On one thing I wholeheartedly agree: O.D. has been discussed ad nauseam.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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dpcd67
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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by dpcd67 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:44 am

I said there isn't an exact shade due probably to different places mixing up the paint. I am not going to get into justifying any particular color; that is up to you; I am no paint expert anyway. I think that the contract called for matching the paint to a color chip that was provided by the Govt and it was up to the vendor to make the paint match. That is a guess too. Please don't tell me that there is only one shade used during WW2. Maybe there was supposed to be. I do know that tm9 shade of paint did not match the original paint on my gpw and 33070 did. You can agree or disagree; fine.
Signsup; dude, you know more about this than you are letting on; I am not biting.
Everyone; paint your jeep whichever color you like. Even yellow.
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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by Niblet » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:59 am

Well now I'm a bit confused,,so you guys are telling me that with all the information about WWII jeeps out there, including original manuals, Tm's SNL's etc,
that someone, somewhere cant figure out definitively what color a darn jeep was painted in WWII? surely there are some NOS cans of paint that have surfaced,
are you kidding me? we know what bolt secures a brake line clamp to the rear axle of a '42 GPW but we somehow cant figure out the color of OD that these
thousands of vehicles were painted??? I am not buying it,,,

TM9 apparently has spent alot of his own money and time researching and developing his own paint, how did 33070 originate? why is this so subjective?
1945 Willys MB
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SN 424804
My Restoration thread <a href=http://g503.com/forums/viewtopi ... >Here</a>

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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:39 am

Niblet, you gotta visit "Vixen Tor" and open a few thousand boxes of NOS WWII truck and tank parts.
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signsup
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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by signsup » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:28 am

My father-in-law used to tell me that they would have POW's in the field paint large equiptment OD green by dipping mops in 55 gal. drums of paint and slopping it on.

Now, how do we duplicate that look?

(other than the obvious, stick a mop in a 55 gal. drum)

Can't imagine there was a QC person at each factory with a paint chip in hand approving the shade of each part and vehicles that left. Just not a priority in war time, I can imagine. Even if it was, with no densitometers and spectrometers to measure light reflectance and wave lenghts, it was all subject to visual interpretation. Surprised they were as uniform as they were.
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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by dpcd67 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:31 am

I don't know the answer to your question, but yes, there is more than one shade of OD paint used in WW2. The research TM9 did shows one of them. Like ben said; look at a few thousand parts and you will see. Same thing for web gear; and there is still a lot of that out there in NOS condition; you see every shade of OD you can think of, but made to the same color specification. Mixing paint in 1943 was not done with computers; it was done by human eyeballs.
All this discussion is not new.
Confusing? Only if you over think it.
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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:44 am

And it was applied thin. The true WWII may not be pleasing to the eye of the new collector. There is a big difference in how one looks at the color, those who were exposed to thousands of WWII vehicles in their original color back in the 40's-50's have a different opinion of what to expect than the new collector visiting an MV show 7 decades later, especially is there are vehicles that have been painted with the full range of OD paint brands being offered. Nice colors are not always correct. WWII period paint shows every scuff, fingerprint and oil spot after a very short time.
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Tom Wolboldt
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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by Tom Wolboldt » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:45 am

Hi Group,

There was one color of top coat paint used on completed WW2 G503 Army MBs / GPWs and it was Lusterless Olive Drab. Where the rub comes into play is that there was three different specs used during the MB / GPW production run plus there was at least two suppliers of all three specs.

TM 9 Ordnance OD paint most matches the third top coat paint spec used. At Ford this third paint spec started about July 1. '44

Hi Robert,
Can't imagine there was a QC person at each factory with a paint chip in hand approving the shade of each part and vehicles that left. Just not a priority in war time, I can imagine.
During the War there were peanut counters and Company / Government inspectors everywhere.
Surprised they were as uniform as they were.
They all, as far as I can read, took their jobs very seriously because their sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, fathers, uncles, or cousins lives were all on the line it they didn't. The easy out " anything goes cause there was a war on " is a plain crock.

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signsup
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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by signsup » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:28 am

Tom,

Whoa! I never meant to question the quality of any of the products manufactured during the war. I was just suggestioning that of all the things to inspect, test, try, fit, drive, and sign off on, that the shade of the paint MAY have been down on the list of priorities. I know the government had inspectors in all phases of wartime production. My father served in the 2nd Army Inspector General's office inspecting troops equiptment and paperwork prior to shipping out. I know how important it is.

But do you realy think, in wartime, that jeeps were rejected by the quality department or the Army because the shade varied slightly from one batch of paint to the other? How can you explain all the various shades of OD paint on parts manufactured by different suppliers?

I just commented that with all that being said and done, I am pleasantly surprised the color of the paint was as close as it appeared to be in photos. Iblack and white)
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Chuck Lutz
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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by Chuck Lutz » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:45 am

When the paint formula was decided upon, paint would not be mixed in gallon buckets with tiny amounts of components that might not always be added in the exact amounts.....If you are making 500 gallons at a time you are probably mixing in components by the GALLON or by the POUND so getting the right amounts of each wouldn't be that difficult.

There are pages and pages of paint threads...but if you read Tom's post....Ford had three formulas over the course of the war and who knows if the changes would have made a visible difference or were just substitutions of some sort?

To summarize, and this may not include everything...
1) Air pressure
2) Nozzle orfice diameter
3) distance from surface
4) thickness of application
5) temperature of paint
6) ambient room temperature
7) who painted it/technique
8) prep/primer

After that, what happened to the item:
1) sealed in airtight container
2) sealed with any substance that might attack/change the finish
3) temp/humidity where stored (packaged or unpackaged)
4) exposure to light or sunlight
5) exposure to solvents/cleaners/water
6) oxidation

Original cans:
1) exposure to heat
2) degradation of components over 70 years
3) separation

We can go on, but the point is while paint may have begun with a paint spec... that changed during the war....there is just no way to say with any degree of accuracy that anyone has the Holy Grail in a can, on an NOS part or in their glove box....too many variables and subject to too many things.

You like TM 9....go with it...you like 33070 then go with that....you like Forest Green or yellow or whatever....no problem, but I don't think anyone can say with any degree of certainty that THEY have the "correct" OD paint and YOURS is "wrong" with the same degree of certainly....unless yours is Barn Red or Eggshell Blue....
Chuck Lutz

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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:04 pm

Batches of paint were tested in house at the manufacturers for color and mill thickness on standard paint test cards and not after it was applied to the vehicle. There were also smaller samples taken for later testing if deemed necessary.
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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by Niblet » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:07 pm

ok cool,,I get it,,no one knows, or isnt saying because of whatever reason,,but Im going to be pissed off if a judge docks me points because of color,,,
1945 Willys MB
DOD 3-10-45
HN 20691353
SN 424804
My Restoration thread <a href=http://g503.com/forums/viewtopi ... >Here</a>

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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by Diesel Dave » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:42 pm

Chuck,
Good points and very well said. I don't see how anyone could disagree.

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Re: The art of painting my WWII Jeep

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:50 pm

Anyone have the WWII factory instructions for painting and curing the O.D. paint at the Willys and Ford plants?
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
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