Head gasket - which side up

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
Wolfman
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Re: Head gasket - which side up

Post by Wolfman » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:08 am

The problem with the bogus, repop head bolts, turned up a year or two ago.
There was a batch of these bolts dumped on the market back then but not heard any more about them lately.
I have only ran into the "bad" bolts once.
They looked normal enough but was obvious there was a problem when trying to torgue them down.
Good bolts will come up to torque with a solid feel on the torque wrench.
The bad bolts would not. when the torque was getting close to the setting, they would continue to yield.
You would think just a little more and you would have it, but no joy. The wrench kept turning. Finally, you might reach the desired torque. I did have one break. On a re-check, most of the other bolts were low and needed torqued again.
The set I had hit the trash can and I went for a different bolt set.
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB


dinof
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Re: Head gasket - which side up

Post by dinof » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:31 am

When fastener companies decided to buy from other countries like China, the whole industry suffered from quality control. When you walk into Home depot or whatever, you are buying bolts from other countries. Some companies were caught labeling grade 2 bolts as grade 5 or 8. People have been killed time after time because of this. What's the answer to this? Make them in America and pay a little more. Your life might depend on it!
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
1930 Model A Tudor
1968 Taco Minibike

Wolfman
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Re: Head gasket - which side up

Post by Wolfman » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:55 am

I am thinking the bolts I referred to came from some place in Europe, Originally. Dino.
A customer bought them and brought them to me to use. I know where he got them and I also know this person no longer sells them, so I will drop it there !!
It was not Ron !
I know what you are saying about cash & carry stores.
You buy the grade bolt you want by the # and what color they are. The color has to do with how much a pound the cashier charges and little to do the bolt hardness.
When strength matters, it is good to buy fasteners from a known, quality supplier.
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB

fiveftsix
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Re: Head gasket - which side up

Post by fiveftsix » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:28 am

Well Luc, Mike,Dino
feel a little better after reading your posts
As both studs and bolts have come from Ron and JMP just recently.
it`s one thing building an engine for yourself but when it`s for someone else then it`s a different matter.
You want it right especially when the machining and parts for the said engine has exceeded $2500
Together with the knowledge of where Ron`s and JMP parts originated from even more so.
Luc, I will ask about the original bolts as to what the owner wishes to do with them and get back on that score with you.
Geoff Bull

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dpcd67
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Re: Head gasket - which side up

Post by dpcd67 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:59 am

If you want real bolts instead of Chinese copies, I use DODGE bolts and studs; they are still available and are won't stretch.
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Joe Gopan
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Re: Head gasket - which side up

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:04 am

DODGE head bolts have a smaller Hex. There are quality repro G-503 head bolts and studs out there. Know your seller.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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dinof
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Re: Head gasket - which side up

Post by dinof » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:32 am

Joel,
Many people in the fastener industry trusted their old contacts and used them for many years. Then all of a sudden things changed and those sellers were not aware of it. From Peterbilt trucks to roller coaster rides started breaking down and sometimes people were getting killed. I defy anyone here to tell me how to identify a counterfeit bolt that looks just like the US made product. Sometimes you can, and sometimes you can't!
Dino Falabrino
On the "G" since 1998.
1943 GPW 102310 DOD 3-3-43
1928 Model A Roadster Pickup
1930 Model A Tudor
1968 Taco Minibike

Joe Gopan
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Re: Head gasket - which side up

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:14 am

There are some engine manufacturers that specify installing new head bolts instead of reinstalling the originals. I ran a structural steel testing laboratory.Threaded fastener testing was routine.
No sense going off topic here, best to be familiar with your vendors products.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

fiveftsix
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Re: Head gasket - which side up

Post by fiveftsix » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:21 pm

Well guys
After reading all your reports of bad studs bolts etc
would like to say as well as give a report of my findings so far.
First off Luc
Send me an address where to send the old bolts too
Secondly knowing the source of Rons and JMP`s head bolts like to say they are as good as you can get
I very much doubt there from China more like England
Rons and JMP certainly regard there reputation more than selling junk
That`s obvious
so I`m happy to order from our host anytime and sure you are too
If Ron found junk he`d throw in the trash bin as would JMP
Not like some who`d make a quick buck
Now on to the copper head gasket I received
First off it`s not a solid gasket but like many a layered one.
Made by Best gaskets !!!!
Well lets hope it is just that !!!!! only time will tell
What I can tell you all it does not have a separate fire ring
But one half of the gasket is made to extend the cylinder walls and then wrapped around the other half copper part to create the fire ring

it`s a very tight fit over the studs on a GPW motor but the cylinder outline is correct in that it does not encroach into the cylinder bores
as did one I did have prior !!!
What is noticeable is the fact of the water slots
Here the gasket does not have separate crimped rings but has a very slight raised pressing
Not exactly as I note in the Ford Drawing that Bill Posted but there none the less
These very slight pressings are also noted around all the head bolt holes as well as the remaining water holes
its very difficult to tell but appears to be at least a four layered gasket
with steel between the two outer copper layers
as I mentioned the only markings on it are best gasket 555
So I will report back on how it performs on a running motor once installed back in the jeep
Geoff Bull

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Re: Head gasket - which side up

Post by Wolfman » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:09 am

Just to toss this into the mix.
I have a friend that put a copper head gasket on his M-38, L-134 engine last fall.
So far he is real happy with it.
Mike Wolford
CJ-2A
VEP GPW
Comm./Inst. SEL
AOPA ( 50 yrs)
EAA ( 49 yrs)
4th Inf. Div. - 5th Inf. Div. - 2nd Armor Div. - CIB

fiveftsix
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Re: Head gasket - which side up

Post by fiveftsix » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:44 am

Well Mike,
All good news there then too !!!
looks like copper head gasket is the way to go, together with bolts and or studs from Ron or JMP !!!!
Geoff Bull


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