Evolution Of The US Jerry Can

[Chuck Lutz]

We don't agree that much is clear, I respect your opinion and I hope you respect mine.

[Michael Browne]

Hello Fred and all,

Looks like Chuck has skirted around answering your question to define what he refers to as prototype jeeps.

My take on the "prototype jeeps" goes as follows...

Pilot very first vehicle, or small number of vehicles (less than say 6) produced to meet contract... the US referred to it as pilot in contract documents
Prototype same as above (substitute either term)
Bantam BRC60 really doesn't exist in official documents this is the "round nose Bantam" the balance of the first contract after the pilot accepted. 69 made
Bantam BRC40 also doesn't exist in documents...this is the 1/4 ton model BRC made in 1941 year probably should be called a BRC41 2500+ made
Ford GP1 Ford bodied pilot vehicle made for acceptance by US Govt.
Ford GP ?? Budd bodied pilot vehicle made but not presented to the US Govt.
Ford GP Ford 1/4 ton model GP vehicle made to meet contract for 1/4 ton truck after pilot accepted, in numbers exceeding 4500
Willys Quad pilot vehicle made for acceptance by US Govt.
Willys MA 1/4 ton model MA made to meet contract after pilot not accepted in numbers around 1400
Willys MB standard jeep made to meet contract/s
Ford GPW standard jeep made to meet contract/s and interchangeable with MB

All the early production jeeps, BRC, GP, MA fall into the pre-standardized jeep category with the advent of the "standard" jeep/s MB / GPW

This is my take on things and you can either agree or disagree as you will. I for one am not about to dictate how these are referred to as this started back in the 70's & 80's by people who have had more experience than myself.

In manufacturing only the first few examples are referred to a prototypes and these very rarely leave the plant. Once production starts they are all products model xyz

Regards

[Chuck Lutz]

BRC MA GP PROTOTYPES

[Fred Coldwell]

BRC MA GP PROTOTYPES

I respectfully disagree Chuck, notwithstanding that usage on G503.com. It is an older, imprecise and incorrect application of the word "prototype". Due to the large quantity made, the BRC-40, MA and GP are more properly called pre-standardized jeeps. This difference in application of the word "prototype" is one basis for our disagreement as to the names which might be used to identify various portable liquid containers. I respectfully suggest you update your understanding of the meaning of "prototype" to a more modern usage rather than staying with its older and imprecise usage within the MV hobby, which is a major reason why your proposal remains in a minority of one with respect to re-naming a group of portable liquid containers.

I realize your suggestion for a new name is intended to advance our collective understanding of the development and evolution of portable liquid containers. I don't question your motives. But please stop and think about why you are seeing so much reasoned opposition to your proposed definition of "American Prototype". Think about it.

Michael, I don't disagree with your definitions. I realize "prototype" and "pilot model" have been used interchangeably in government contract documents. I won't quibble with that fact. But I still see a slight distinction that may elude government contract agents. Personally, I think of prototype as the very first vehicle (or whatever) of a new type which is built for moving the design from paper to metal as proof of concept. I regard the very first Bantam 1/4 ton 4X4 as the prototype jeep. To me, pilot models are the next very small batch (6-8 or so) built for testing the design (or variations of a design) in the field. The difference in names I see arises from the fact that once a vehicle type (like the jeep) has been proven successful, then future development does not require another prototype. Instead, new variations of a proven vehicle design will be built only as a small number of pilot models (such as the MC-38 jeeps) for field testing before large scale production begins. I regard all 69 BRC-60s (the only exception to my 6-8 number rule), the Ford Pygmy and Ford Budd, and the 2 Willys Quads (2WS and 4WS) as pilot model jeeps.

Due to their large quantity production, the BRC-40, Ford GP and Willys MA are all pre-standardized jeeps in my book. I don't have copies of the Bantam contracts, so have used BRC-60 and BRC-40 as the common names by which most MV collectors recognize the Bantam quarter-ton 4X4 vehicles to which those terms refer.

[Michael Browne]

Hello Fred,

I see we are on the same page well almost

Fred wrote

Michael, I don't disagree with your definitions. I realize "prototype" and "pilot model" have been used interchangeably in government contract documents. I won't quibble with that fact. But I still see a slight distinction that may elude government contract agents. Personally, I think of prototype as the very first vehicle (or whatever) of a new type which is built for moving the design from paper to metal as proof of concept. I regard the very first Bantam 1/4 ton 4X4 as the prototype jeep. To me, pilot models are the next very small batch (6-8 or so) built for testing the design (or variations of a design) in the field. The difference in names I see arises from the fact that once a vehicle type (like the jeep) has been proven successful, then future development does not require another prototype. Instead, new variations of a proven vehicle design will be built only as a small number of pilot models (such as the MC-38 jeeps) for field testing before large scale production begins. I regard all 69 BRC-60s (the only exception to my 6-8 number rule), the Ford Pygmy and Ford Budd, and the 2 Willys Quads (2WS and 4WS) as pilot model jeeps.

I have used the term pilot to refer to the 1st vehicle built by each manufacturer as that is what they are called in the US contract/s & contract/s replies that I have read. I certainly agree that the prototype term in general use today refers to the very first one of whatever made, but your question specified the jeep.

Due to their large quantity production, the BRC-40, Ford GP and Willys MA are all pre-standardized jeeps in my book. I don't have copies of the Bantam contracts, so have used BRC-60 and BRC-40 as the common names by which most MV collectors recognize the Bantam quarter-ton 4X4 vehicles to which those terms refer.

You can only regard the BRC/ GP / MA as pre-standardized jeeps in retrospect. Because at the time of their manufacturer they were 1/4 ton 4x4 trucks built for the US Govt and identified as such and the MB/GPW didn't exist.

Certainly the terms used on g503 & MVPA publications are not correct in my view but are that widely used and for some time. I recall reading an early Army Motors from the 80's that referred to the Bantam as 40BRC and it is hard to change old habits.

Regards