Mystery Cans Revisited, With Pic

Manufacturers, production numbers, configurations, etc.
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Greg Hines
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Re: can do

Post by Greg Hines » Tue May 15, 2007 7:22 am

Chuck Lutz wrote:Greg: YES, the jerry can as WE know it WAS reverse engineered. The Brits were using the same rectangular "flimsies" design the US was using which were pretty lousy and captured some German cans and sent them to the UK to "reverse engineer them". Is there any reason that you would not believe that the Brits then sent samples or the German can or of their copy to the US to get mass-production here to build them? I'm sure that the US found that the simple construction technique could be improved on and the US design was born....but not before the evolution of design through the USMC style and the final US style occured.....would anyone not then believe that the "mystery" cans were the first almost direct copy of the cans they recieved and the later design was the improvment?
Yes, I believe that pretty much, though one could debate the exact evolution. But belief is not proof.

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Mark Tombleson
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Post by Mark Tombleson » Tue May 15, 2007 8:05 am

This topic is going in a circle again. :roll:

You hit the nail on the head when you say that some of the Mfg have no idea of the history of the cans.

One new example is the thread on the Radio Flyer cans... how were they marked?

I was at the USMC Museum in Quantico last week and while they have some very neat stuff, all of it is not 100% correct. I have found the Navy and Marine Corps historical sources lacking at the museums at MCRD and Port Hueneme also. Not saying they don't know things, just they are not that receptive and somewhat hard to get a hold of as well as having no information on the subjects I inquired about. They could not find the Curator last week after some 5 hours looking for him for me. I don’t really think they could not find him, more likely he was just not interested in seeing me.

I remember going round and round with some historical information with Chuck some time ago, though I cannot remember what the issue was. I contacted the agencies involved and some of the companies and they seem to only have some kind of oral history available that I remember.
NARA is the place to look, but I was there a couple of weeks ago (the one in D.C.) and it will take a determined individual some time to find what is needed to help resolve this issue.

U.S. National Archives and Records Administration - Archives.gov HomeSearch All NARA Web Pages ... 8601 Adelphi Road, College Park, MD 20740-6001 Telephone: 1-86-NARA-NARA or 1-866-272-6272.
http://www.archives.gov/
They did several searches on the MZ-1 for me with just enough results to help me out so they are good guys in my book, but the good information is not real easy to find.

Here is also the Seabee Museum
http://www.seabeehf.org/museum/

I would like to go to these places and do some research... just how to do that is a problem. :(
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Re: can do

Post by lucakiki » Tue May 15, 2007 12:09 pm

Chuck Lutz wrote:....but not before the evolution of design through the USMC style and the final US style occurred.....would anyone not then believe that the "mystery" cans were the first almost direct copy of the cans they received and the later design was the improvement?
What he heck is a USMC style? All I am aware of is the usual american can , made the same way as other american cans, but with a European spout, an of course USMC marked. Conco made.
Luca: While there are at least THREE different styles of "Mystery cans" found in the US, there seems to be only ONE of that design found outside the US.

If you go back to the old threads on the so called mistery cans, you will see that there is only one style of mistery can involved: no marking, big X, European spout, two halves construction. It of this kind that I am talking, and is of this type that I am always been talking.I do not want to talk of other styles, as I am not even aware of them.
Is it your contention that while these three types are NOT like the British or German styles, that they were made in Europe?
Please quote! Whenever did I talk of any type of mistery can dissimilar from the German can ? Now, if I did not ever even mention any different can, where did you take my supposed contention that they were made in Europe? How many times should I repeat that the mistery cans, as discussed in the early threads, are one kind only, with the usual euro spout?
Further, that at least ONE of those European made designs that are found ONLY in the US and are NOT found in Europe were still made in Europe?

Not very likely.
Yes, not very likely. Too bad that I have never said anything different.
Now, for the last time, expressed in my best english:
There is a type of can, with the very same kind of spout found on German cans, Italian cans, British cans, USMC Conco made cans, with the very same big X pattern on the side as found on early german cans. It is usually deprived of any lettering whatsoever, even if examples do exist with some code stamped on them, such as the one in above picture. These, and only these, are the ]mistery cans as discussed in the early threads.
These are the cans that I believe to be likely of european origin. I am not sure, otherwise they would not be mistery cans any more. I just tend to believe they were made in Europe in the same way you tend to believe they were made in USA.
I am not talking of early USMC cans, experimental cans,round spouted cans or whatever else you want to add to the discussion. I know nothing about those. I know very little about the mistery cans, too, but at least I have seen them, owned them, seen them pictured in ETO pictures. And I have never seen or heard one single reason to consider these ETO cans as U.S. made.


I had a few of them, still have some, and would gladly welcome a solution: but if there is not, they will kee they mistery status until some real light, rather than beliefs and suppositions, is shed on the issue.
Fair enough?
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
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????

Post by Chuck Lutz » Tue May 15, 2007 3:30 pm

Ah Luca:

First of all, ANY can with a BIG X and NO MARKINGS is a mystery. If you don't know who or where it was made, that's a mystery.

1) Glad you understand that the USMC style can is basically an American can with a Euro spout. That would be why the term "USMC STYLE" works.
2) No....there are THREE distinctly different cans with the Big "X" and no markings on them found in the USA. All have the clam-shell design, three handle top, Cam-lock spout, are "Big X" sided and have no markings...but they have design differences. They have been a mystery to everyone here as well. Don't cling to the "only one type" theory, there are several of the "Big X, no marking" styles.....you've just seen one example.
3) You obviously have only seen ONE of the different cans made in America that preceeded the USMC can and the standard US style cans. This is why you are confused and believe that the one style you have seen was not made in the States I guess.
4) We have many types of the "Big X, no markings" cans here and that is because they were all made here. We weren't copying the "Big X, no marking" cans when we started production we were sent the German jerry cans by the British and perhaps by then they sent us their version of it.
5) None of the THREE mystery cans I have are like the German or Brit cans so they weren't copied from one of them. The small details of construction I'm talking about here, not the look from 10' or so.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask you to let some common sense influence you. Forget your preconcieved notion about where the big X unmarked cans were made.....

It is POSSIBLE that the Germans, the British or the Italians made some early cans with a big X and no markings, but it SEEMS that while they all share the SAME design details that all the ones that have been found in Europe are slightly different than the actual WWII marked cans made by those three countries. Yet those ARE like at least ONE of the mystery cans we have found here in the States.

There are at least THREE Big X, no marking types of cans found in the USA. They do NOT copy the characteristics of the marked German, British or Italian cans....

1) The top handle piece welded to it uses different design and welding technique than either the German or British ones and is slightly different in size and shape.
2) The lid on the two versions of the Euro spout is fabricated differently than the German, British ones I have. (You might check your mystery can and see if the top handle section fabrication and installation resembles a German/British can or if it actually looks more like the later US style...my three certainly do)
3) I even have a ROUND spout one that has the same mfg characteristics as the others and is not like the German and British cans....another early attempt here to come up with a copy I think.

So since we totally disagree about this, let's leave it this way:
1) There are some "Big X, unmarked" cans in Europe that might have been made in Europe.
2) There are at least THREE "Big X, unmarked" cans types in the USA that do NOT resemble the German or British cans when observed closeup but whose construction details DO resemble the later USA gas cans, so they were more likely to have been made in the USA and less likely to have been made in Europe.
3) Examples of these are found in the Tarawa USMC photo and have been found in foreign countires where US forces or Lend Lease items were shipped.


This way you can have your "Big X, unmarked" cans in Europe that were made in Europe and they can remain a "mistery" to you and we can have our "Big X, unmarked" cans that were made here in the USA that don't resemble the German or British cans when closely inspected and aren't really much of a mystery to us at all!

Everyone wins! I love it!

Luca....for just a minute....we were supplying the WORLD with jerry cans, 22 million of them....if we find lots of the mystery cans here, would it be LOGICAL to assume that we somehow got ahold of early production cans from the Germans, British or Italians in quantity and shipped them BACK to the States after we came up with the improved design for our own forces? Really, we'd ship BACK to the States a significant number of those cans still found these days when we were supplying the worlds' armies?
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: ????

Post by lucakiki » Wed May 16, 2007 2:26 am

Chuck Lutz wrote:
First of all, ANY can with a BIG X and NO MARKINGS is a mystery. If you don't know who or where it was made, that's a mystery.
True, but ten there is plenty of unmarked cans to add to the unknown manufacturer/ unknown nationality list.
However, since the beginning of the jerrycan forum, by "mistery cans" we always meant those unmarked cans with the european kind of spout. No matter how many times you want to add round spouted, experimental or whatever.
1) Glad you understand that the USMC style can is basically an American can with a Euro spout. That would be why the term "USMC STYLE" works.
Wait a minute, it was you who mentioned USMC style cans, without explaining what you would mean by that. No way just the euro spout by itself denotes a USMC style, even if the USMC chose that kind of spout for whatever reason. This kind of spout is usually called an euro style spout.

2) No....there are THREE distinctly different cans with the Big "X" and no markings on them found in the USA. All have the clam-shell design, three handle top, Cam-lock spout, are "Big X" sided and have no markings...but they have design differences. They have been a mystery to everyone here as well. Don't cling to the "only one type" theory, there are several of the "Big X, no marking" styles.....you've just seen one example.
I am not clinging to one type only theory. It is just that one thing is the kind appeared in the ETO, as per WWII pictures and per surfacing examples, and one thing is the three different kinds ( whatever they are) found in the USA.
3) You obviously have only seen ONE of the different cans made in America that preceeded the USMC can and the standard US style cans. This is why you are confused and believe that the one style you have seen was not made in the States I guess.
Obviously? I repeated ad nauseam that I am only speaking of that one kind of jerrycan. The others, whose differences you might care to explain, were never considered in my discussion. You asked privately about the tabs on my cans, and I told you more than once that there is no hole. Make of that whatever you like to.
4) We have mbecause they were all made here. We weren't copying the "Big X, no marking" cans when we started production we were sent the German jerry cans by the British and perhaps by then they sent us their version of it.any types of the "Big X, no markings" cans here and that is

It is still not sure whence the cans to copy came from...
5) None of the THREE mystery cans I have are like the German or Brit cans so they weren't copied from one of them. The small details of construction I'm talking about here, not the look from 10' or so.
Any can looking like a british can is not likely to be mistaken for a " mistery can", for the simple reason of the rectangle in the x pattern.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask you to let some common sense influence you. Forget your preconcieved notion about where the big X unmarked cans were made.....
On that I am not answering you, but let me remind that you have not, by no mean, the exclusive on common sense.

.

This way you can have your "Big X, unmarked" cans in Europe that were made in Europe and they can remain a "mistery" to you and we can have our "Big X, unmarked" cans that were made here in the USA that don't resemble the German or British cans when closely inspected and aren't really much of a mystery to us at all!
Then stop calling them mistery cans and keep this definition for those cans that you do not know enough about to make up your idea, or prove where they were made.

Luca....for just a minute....we were supplying the WORLD with jerry cans, 22 million of them....if we find lots of the mystery cans here, would it be LOGICAL to assume that we somehow got ahold of early production cans from the Germans, British or Italians in quantity and shipped them BACK to the States after we came up with the improved design for our own forces? Really, we'd ship BACK to the States a significant number of those cans still found these days when we were supplying the worlds' armies?
What has the quantity of standard shaped jerrycans have to do with the issue? Do not forget the can shortage, the fact that in many pictures the british style seems to outnumber the US style, and also the fact that the allegedly better US style ( which I will not even discuss) was not better enough to replace the clamshell style worldwide after the war.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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OK

Post by Chuck Lutz » Wed May 16, 2007 6:27 am

Luca....your unmarked cans were made in Europe, our unmarked cans were made in the States. That would seem to settle it, OK?
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: OK

Post by lucakiki » Wed May 16, 2007 7:03 am

Chuck Lutz wrote:Luca....your unmarked cans were made in Europe, our unmarked cans were made in the States. That would seem to settle it, OK?
Almost, but not the way you put it.
It is not a matter of my cans, your cans. It is a matter of cans.
The cans I am speaking about were not
made in Europe,
.
Rather those cans , according to some collectors opinions, including mine, were most likely made in Europe. .And since Italy and Germany were not exactly in a friendly position, I would replace Europe with England. Since nobody knows for sure, they keep being refered to as mistery cans. There are also almost identical cans with some codes on them: also those, since no one seems to know the meaning, are mistery cans..

Then there are the unmarked cans surfacing in quantities in the States.
I do not know anything about them, but since some on your side of the ocean know for sure that the three variations showing up are made in the States, and predating the standard USMC cans, these are not mistery cans. Fine with me. On your side of the ocean there are also guys who tend to believe that these cans were American made, but would not bet the farm on the issue. I think their position is a tad more reasonable,by the way. Let us agree on a common way to define those cans,different from ETO mistery cans, and that will be it, until further information surfaces.

Just for fun, let me add the following.
On an old Army Motors I found this letter, from a Konrad Schreier Jr.:
... I remember a limited number of German made Jerricans in service in Burma, in 1945. These were North Africa captures sent to the area with other equipment like Grant tanks.

Whatever one makes of it! I just quoted it as it might be of some interest.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Post by S McIlwaine » Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:58 pm

Here's one I'd class as a mystery can. As yet unrestored. Its current location is in Northern Ireland and it and a WD 1942 and WD 1945 can have been in my dads garage for the last 29 years. That’s all I can add.
Image
Notice sand colour under the OD.
Image
Oval mouth oval breather pipe
Image
Black stuff is tar it picked up in the garage.

Sorry no providence to offer
Just another UK jeep lover

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Post by lucakiki » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:35 pm

There we are! No tiny holes, no hole on tab, yellowish sand colour.
This the kind I have been mentioning many times as likely made in Europe.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
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Post by Gdcast » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:08 am

ANY can with a BIG X and NO MARKINGS is a mystery.
I have one like that shown in the pic, but with a square in the middle of the X.
No Markings. Is it a mystery can too, or not?
:?: :?: :?:
Guillermo "Billy" Castelli
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Post by lucakiki » Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:25 pm

Gdcast wrote:
ANY can with a BIG X and NO MARKINGS is a mystery.
I have one like that shown in the pic, but with a square in the middle of the X.
No Markings. Is it a mystery can too, or not?
:?: :?: :?:
Not in the meaning usually accepted on this forum for the combination of the two words. Most likely it is a civilian post war can. :idea:
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Post by Gdcast » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:25 am

Roger, Over and out.
Guillermo "Billy" Castelli
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Post by gerrykan » Mon May 19, 2008 5:22 pm

I am adding a couple of pictures that might be of interest on this topic.
From this thread on the Jeeps used by: USMC, USN, USCG forum:
http://www.g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=118239


Image
There are three USMC style jerrycans in the sand by the jeep that have the centered camlock spout(three piece body construction).
Mounted in the holder on the back of the jeep is an offset camlock spout jerrycan(two piece body construction, or mystery can).
The image above can be found on this website: http://www.historylink101.com/wwII_b-w/ ... index.html



Image
This photo is courtesy of Mark Tombleson.
I have seen it posted before but never noticed that the jerrycan mounted on the passenger step is a large mouth camlock watercan.
Roy

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Post by Chuck Lutz » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:28 pm

Worth re-reading in light of Robin's new research....thanks for digging up that stuff.....
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: Mystery Cans Revisited, With Pic

Post by lucakiki » Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:39 am

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask you to let some common sense influence you. Forget your preconcieved notion about where the big X unmarked cans were made.....
Sure, worth re -reading!
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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