WW2 or Postwar 81mm Mortar Ammo Crate?

[bfryar44]

I saw this the other day at a local antique store priced less than $25. I've been looking thru my reference material but I'm not sure if this a late WW2 or post war 81mm ammo crate? It's in beautiful condition even though it's missing the latches and hinges. This is the type without rope loop handles. Just the standard wood handles on each side.

Thanks in advance for any assistance and/or information.
bfryar44

[julien54]

Hello

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[DDTrustee]

I have some original 81 mm mortar boxes for sale most dated 43 or 44 with clear marking sand the rope handles are in excellent condition with all the original metal hardware still on then box. $40 each and will deliver FOR FREE to the national. I have some 60mm and 105mm Howitzer boxes as well....same price; same delivery.
Will ship via Fastenal on a pallet in quantity o/w via fedex ground.

[bfryar44]

Hello

The picture does not work

Please upload it again

Picture has been corrected.
Thanks,
Bfryar44

[917601]

Looks to be a modern day repro. Open the lid and look at the nails...or better yet, post a picture of the inside lid ( it should have special nails that are clinched over on the inside- a drawing spec) and the bottom outside should also have manufacture markings w/ drawing number on the bottom. I have a dozen or so crates from WW2 on up, all calibers, yours does not look right,,,probably why the hardware is missing, they could not find or make the proper style, and the lid two cross pieces are to short. All crates were manufactured to tight standards...much wrong with it, no load date, no Lot numbers, no manufacturers name or drawing number on bottom, etc....also, the blue stripe indicates a training round. I have a late 40's crate (90mm) with a blue stripe and it was repainted and remarked ( over the original HE marking designation) to indicate such. I also have a 106HEP crate, bottom manufacture dated 1956," loaded " date repainted over, and over with the current date reading "1-68"....much, much goes into a simple crate. Fakes and repros are being seen now that original crates approach a hundred bucks or more on flea-bay.

[917601]

I just noticed, the corrugated clips holding the two pieces of wood on the lid is wrong. I am now 100% satisfied it is a modern day replica/repro.

[julien54]

I agree it is post ww2.
Original metal parts are screwed with 4 screws on ww2 crates. Post ww2 are screwed with 3 screws. you still can see the 3 holes on this one

[RobL]

HI Bryan,

I'll chime in on your crate question. And my opinion is based only on the one photo that I'm seeing in your post.

Its definitely post World War II (I don't really like to say just 'post war' - 'cause we've had wars since that really big one in the '40's )

Its post-WWII because:

The AIC - Ammunition Identification Code - R4HPA - is not in the ORD 11 SNL R-4 dated mid-1945. So its a post-WWII code for 81mm ammo. SNL R-4 only lists an M57 WP. WWII dated SNL don't list an M57A1. It's a post WWII version of the 81mm round - the M57A1 has a different fin assembly than the earlier WWII version.

Based on the hole pattern, you can see this crate was originally fitted with the three-screw latches/hinges. WWII crates had five holes for fitting the front latch, and four holes for each part of the rear hinge.

The three hole hardware - as once installed on this box - first came into use during the Korean War. (those three hole latches/hinges continue in use to this day). Your pic is showing the back side of the crate since we are seeing the three holes for the hinges on both the side of the crate and on the lid. If you notice, the opposite side of the lid shows two holes. Those two holes would be for securing the part of the hasp with the turn/twist catch. The slight shadow and staining around the now missing fittings indicates that the post WWII hardware was installed and removed once upon a time.

The painted band on the left side is not blue - this is not a training round. The painted band is a yellow stripe over grey. Thats the correct marking to indicate a chemical or smoke round. This is the correct marking for a WP smoke round. That painted indicator has been used since WWII.

And I'm willing to say its a 100% original crate. Not a modern repro. Just a humble, never-loaded, post-WWII crate.

There is nothing really 'wrong' with the crate for a post-WWII, unloaded crate.

There are many things 'right' with the crate that says its a post-WWII, unloaded crate.

Its nailed correctly according to spec - spacing, pattern, and number of nails.

The 'short' stiffener/cleat across the top is not really a problem. I've seen stacks of these. Not ideal, but not really a deal breaker.

Corrugated nails - as seen in the lid - have been used on crates since WWII. Have originals in my collection. The presence of corrugated nails also isn't a deal breaker.

The lack of a pack date or lot number just means that the crate was never loaded with ammunition. The crate maker may have delivered the completed crate to the arsenal for packing - and they just didn't load the crate. Once its loaded it would be stamped with the lot number and date. Perhaps the arsenal may have had more crates on hand than rounds to pack. So this one was stripped of its still valuable hardware, and then the crate was surplussed/discarded. If the crate maker marked the crate with their name, that marking would be on either the inside or outside of the bottom panel. Its not visible in this picture.

The end cleats/handle grabs are a full inch to an inch and a quarter thick - correct for mil spec crates. These end cleats are not made from the easier/cheaper 3/4 inch thick lumber found on the rest of the crate. Planing extra thick lumber down to the thickness required for proper end cleats is way more effort than most repro makers are willing to take.

Now, logically, I ask myself, who would go to the trouble of repro-ing a post-WWII crate for an obscure round like this and not add the finishing touches that folks so crave? wartime date, etc.

I'm one of those nuts who does take that extra effort to make things right, but why would I if you can pick up originals in an antique shop for $25?

Just my 2 cents.

Rob

[DDTrustee]

I have a number of these - some mfg'ed by different companies but all dated around 1944 some early 1945
$40 each shipping or cartage to Louisville extra.

[RobL]

You got some nice looking crates there Dan!

R

[bfryar44]

I have a number of these - some mfg'ed by different companies but all dated around 1944 some early 1945
$40 each shipping or cartage to Louisville extra.

PM sent!
Thanks,
bfryar44

[DDTrustee]

Here are some more 81mm crate pics and a 76mm one. I also have a number of 105mm Howitzer cases for WWII displays and some large rocket boxes.
The four posted 81mm ones below are for sale....$40 each and will either ship at your cost or deliver to Louisville MVPA convention for $5 each.
These are uncleaned and I have wiped them down with damp towel before and it makes them look really nice - the writing does not rub or wash off - it's paint or inked on. Some of the boxes have the shell dividers and cardboard separaters still in them....no way to confirm without opening to WYSIWYG. I have few of the Range Cards shown - about half the boxes have the cards still in them...I will make sure anyone buying gets at least one card, perhaps more....depends on what is I the box. I may have some 60mm boxes too......all 44 and 45 marked and lacked. I will have space on the trailer to Louisville for about 30 boxes max. Once I reach that number - I will not take any more there.
PM for comments or wants & ?s

[DDTrustee]

More pics - sorry for bluish color on some - its the camera not the actual color!

[DDTrustee]

And