Ben Hur USA Numbers

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ng19delta
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Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by ng19delta » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:39 am

As I am getting closer to painting and reassembling my brace of Ben Hur, I am trying to figure the USA registration number for each- or at least a close approximation... Based on the data on the CCKW.org site, I researched both my 11-43 Willys, and my 4-20-45 Hercules, and came up with the following:

With the Willys, they had a total production of 9,502 in 1943 alone. The reg. number range is 0381083 to 0395858 for the entire run of 14,775 units (43& 44 production)

With the Hercules, they had a total production in 1945 of 4,385 units, under 3 different reg. number sets (0863688-0866187; 0927752-0927755; and 0941356-0943242)

First, is it reasonable to assume that each manufacturer started with serial number ONE, and then increased? Additionally, knowing the reg. numbers were assigned by inspectors upon completion (and after any returns to the factory for corrections, which could cause serials out of sequence when accepted) and delivery to the holding area, would it be reasonable to assume that basic math should bring me within a reasonable range of the actual numbers my trailers had?

For example, and I am randomizing the numbers, say I had Willy serial number 7717, produced in November, 1943. The reg. number range being 14,775 units long(for both years of the contract, 14,775 units produced), could I reasonably guess that the number would be somewhere around 7700 above the starting number? i.e.: Reg. number (start) 0381083 plus serial number 7717, would give a correct registration number around 388800? I know there is no way to be 100% sure at this point- but would this seem a reasonable assumption?

Thanks!
Scott


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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by Hammerhead » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:32 pm

Hi Scott,
I can maybe shed some light on the 1945 Hercules T-6 1 ton trailer. My Hercules thankfully had the original data plate and has a DOD of 3-20-1945. It's serial number is 3917 and its actual USA Number is 0865004. I painstakingly sanded down the layers of paint and found the USA number on the tailgate. Then I had the trailer sandblasted and found the Serial Number stamped into the rail on one side of the Casting and the USA Number on the other side right by the Lunette Casting! So much for the hours of sanding! Interestingly the painted USA and the 0865004 were quite a bit smaller in size than one sees on most Ben Hur restorations. I took the exact measurements and plan on putting them back in the original place and original size. The markings are the last thing I have to do and my Hercules will be complete! Hope this helps, Hammerhead
1943 White M-3 Halftrack, 1944 CCKW 353, 1945 MB, 1944 Bantam T3,
1945 Ben-Hur 1-ton trailer, MVPA 12610, NRA Life Member

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by ng19delta » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:55 am

Thanks- that can help me work the numbers a little more: Yours is exactly one month and 646 units before mine!I'll check my calculations when I get home... :)

Scott

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by Hammerhead » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:29 pm

Cool, I'm glad that info could be of help.
1943 White M-3 Halftrack, 1944 CCKW 353, 1945 MB, 1944 Bantam T3,
1945 Ben-Hur 1-ton trailer, MVPA 12610, NRA Life Member

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by ng19delta » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:11 pm

Its funny- I just noticed I already have your reg number written down! Did you have another thread talking about your markings? I saw an older thread the other day, but you didn't have the serial number posted...

Here is what I came up with: The Hercules trailers for 43 & 44 used the reg no. range 0527511-0530110, a quantity of 2599 units: The 45s start with 0863688 to 0866187, another 2499 units: your number falls right in there. Your reg number, 0865004 is 1316 numbers from the start of that number set: If I add 2599 (the 43/44 combined production) with 1316 (the number of reg numbers between the start of the serial and yours), it equals 3917- which is two more than your serial number(3915)- meaning your serial number and the reg number (USA number) are roughly aligned! Which seems to confirm my hypothesis of serial numbers starting with 1, and being able to correlate the USA number based on the serial number... If this carries through, that puts my serial number (4563) in order for a USA number of 0865650 (Or, had it carried exactly, it would have been 0865652)

It seems there are two missing serial numbers in the series- and that accounts for the 2 number variation. Perhaps these were pulled from production, and reentered later or some such...

I can only assume my Willys TW-6 Ben Hur has the same correlation between serial numbers/reg numbers...

I just realized one mistake with my math- the first number in the series, we'll say "0000001" would properly correlate is we added the serial number MINUS one- meaning that "0000001" accounted for that first one, so we would then add the serial number - 1 (1234-1=1233) to get the correct number- "0000001 = 1233= 0001234" Which means there is a difference of ONE between the mathematical number, and the one on your trailer... And that could simply be a math error on my part again... Looks like we have a shooting solution!


Thanks!
Scott

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by Chuck Lutz » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:35 pm

The Bantam 1/4 ton serial numbers start at 101
The Willys MBT serial numbers start at 1001
The Willys MB starts at 100001
....only the GPW serial number starts with "1".

So...if you don't know what the first Ben-Hur serial number used was, you can't just use the USA to find a missing serial number or find a missing USA by using the serial number by using addition/math.

You need to know the number of USA numbers in each contract and not miss any contract and you need to know what number they started production with. You need to compare a sample of known data plate serial numbers and USA numbers and when you get close to the end of one contract and the beginning of another, you need to determine if the trailer was one of the last in one contract/batch of USA numbers or if it was one of the first in the next contract/batch of USA numbers.

The number of USA numbers is one thing...say a contract had 7,575 units in it....did the serial numbers consist of #1 -# 7,575...or did they start the serial numbers at 1001 and end up at 8,575? If you don't know what the starting serial number is, your estimated USA based on your data plat number of...say 1234 could be maybe the 1234th USA number, or if the started with serial number 1001 your USA might be the 234th.

Good Luck...
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by ng19delta » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:29 pm

Chuck Lutz wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:35 pm
The Bantam 1/4 ton serial numbers start at 101
The Willys MBT serial numbers start at 1001
The Willys MB starts at 100001
....only the GPW serial number starts with "1".

So...if you don't know what the first Ben-Hur serial number used was, you can't just use the USA to find a missing serial number or find a missing USA by using the serial number by using addition/math.

You need to know the number of USA numbers in each contract and not miss any contract and you need to know what number they started production with. You need to compare a sample of known data plate serial numbers and USA numbers and when you get close to the end of one contract and the beginning of another, you need to determine if the trailer was one of the last in one contract/batch of USA numbers or if it was one of the first in the next contract/batch of USA numbers.

The number of USA numbers is one thing...say a contract had 7,575 units in it....did the serial numbers consist of #1 -# 7,575...or did they start the serial numbers at 1001 and end up at 8,575? If you don't know what the starting serial number is, your estimated USA based on your data plat number of...say 1234 could be maybe the 1234th USA number, or if the started with serial number 1001 your USA might be the 234th.

Good Luck...
The numbers seem to correspond very well with the "start with number 1" theory: I have great doubts they started with "1001", especially when you consider that the numbers produced line up pretty much exactly with the serial numbers for the WIllys TW-6 and the Hercules T-6 "Ben Hur" trailers... Otherwise that would have my 1943 produced trailer built in 1942, and my 1945 one built in 1944... Please read through the whole correlation: I have included reg numbers for each block, as well as the units built... For example, the one I am using as example, provided by Hammerhead, was built 3-20-1945, and has the ORIGINAL reg number 0865004, and the serial number 3917. Given that 2,599 units were produced in 1943 &1944, and the reg numbers reflect this exact amount, then this unit was produced 1,316 AFTER the highest reg number in that group. However, the number 0865004 IS 1316 units past the starting point for the 1945 registration numbers- which starts at 0863688: and it matches exactly. IF they had started the numbering at 1001, that would have advanced the reg number to about 0864004, which we know it is not... So I am pretty convinced that the Willys and Hercules serial numbers start at 1. I do NOT make that speculation about any of the other manufacturers, as I do not have any actual serial numbers to work with for them. But I do have my Willys and Hercules serial numbers, and can correlate their production dates to the numbers built, and I do have reference of a member's trailer with its original Reg number, its date of manufacture, and serial number...

If you wish to compare reg number blocks, production totals and years etc, here is a pair of links: PRODUCTION NUMBERS: http://www.cckw.org/g518_production_data.htm USA REG. NUMBERS: http://www.cckw.org/G518_USA_Numbers.htm

Thanks
Scott

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by Chuck Lutz » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:52 pm

Since Willys started the MBs with "MB-100001" and the MBT with "1001" as serial numbers....I would wonder why they started the Ben-Hur with "1"....

Just sayin'.....
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by ng19delta » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:10 pm

Chuck Lutz wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:52 pm
Since Willys started the MBs with "MB-100001" and the MBT with "1001" as serial numbers....I would wonder why they started the Ben-Hur with "1"....

Just sayin'.....
Simply the prerogative of the company... They were probably figuring they wouldn't be making the same massive numbers they expected with the 1/4 tons... But the numbers there seem to line up as well...

Scott

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by Hammerhead » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:30 pm

Scott,
I think your calculations are spot-on! I too took the CCKW.org info on the production numbers and used it in calculating the USA number from the Serial Number that was on my data plate. My calculations also came up 1 different than what my actual USA number is when I sanded down and found it. When I saw that difference, I posted a question about why it could be that way. Someone on this Board said it could be any number of reasons. They could have pulled one off for use at the Factory, there could have been a defect, etc.etc. Still 72 years later I think it's remarkable we have all this data to use in calculating these. Like I said earlier, I believe your calculations are perfect after looking at all the data.
Regards, Mike
1943 White M-3 Halftrack, 1944 CCKW 353, 1945 MB, 1944 Bantam T3,
1945 Ben-Hur 1-ton trailer, MVPA 12610, NRA Life Member

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by ng19delta » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:13 pm

Hammerhead wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:30 pm
Scott,
I think your calculations are spot-on! I too took the CCKW.org info on the production numbers and used it in calculating the USA number from the Serial Number that was on my data plate. My calculations also came up 1 different than what my actual USA number is when I sanded down and found it. When I saw that difference, I posted a question about why it could be that way. Someone on this Board said it could be any number of reasons. They could have pulled one off for use at the Factory, there could have been a defect, etc.etc. Still 72 years later I think it's remarkable we have all this data to use in calculating these. Like I said earlier, I believe your calculations are perfect after looking at all the data.
Regards, Mike
Thanks Mike!
Scott

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by Hammerhead » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:19 pm

Hi Scott,
Did you ever check to see if your USA number is stamped in the metal next to the Lunette casting on the Hercules Ben-Hur? My USA number was stamped on one side and the serial number on the other side.
Regards, Mike
1943 White M-3 Halftrack, 1944 CCKW 353, 1945 MB, 1944 Bantam T3,
1945 Ben-Hur 1-ton trailer, MVPA 12610, NRA Life Member

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by ng19delta » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:00 am

I'll take a look, but while I remember some numbers there, not sure if I noted them down... The drawbars for both trailers are leaning against the wall, behind Old Henry(my 42 WC51) in the garage, so not hard to get to at all...'
Scott

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by ng19delta » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:47 pm

VISUAL- I am standing here, braced forward(karate style stance) with my left fist on an extended arm, palm down; my right arm is cocked, fist palm up, next to my right upper chest. MOTION- As I pull and rotate my left arm back, and up in front of my shoulder, I push the right fist forward, rotating palm down, to full extension, with restrained force. AUDIO: A LOUD, violent, "YES!" rips the air.

I have just come back in from the garage, where a little scraping and sleuthing have made a discovery on the 1945 Hercules T-6 "Ben Hur" trailer. I pulled all four draw bars (from both Ben Hur) from the corner they were waiting in, and started scraping the tops, around the casting area. The ones for the 1943 Willys are rather pitted, and may merit overhaul, and are unreadable(at this time) for any numbers. The two slightly curved ones are from the Hercules, and were scraped as well... Rather quickly, one rail gave up the USA registration number, while the other gave up a serial number, as did a spot on the left side frame rail, near the front corner.

As we know, the serial number on my dataplate is 4563: Both the drawbar rail, and the frame carry 4563. This frame is, indeed, original to the dataplate, as is the drawbar.

The USA registration number is ALSO in question: My estimates put it at 0865650 or 0865651, based on my research. This number range is NO LONGER in question, and HAS been CONFIRMED. The 1945 Hercules T-6 "Ben Hur" trailer registration number IS, indeed, 0865650, according to the number stamped into the draw bar, opposite the lunette casting.

To those who questioned my methods, I had one person who stated his original information, and now a confirmation of my own trailer. I feel the Ben Hur owner with a Hercules T-6 can make a fairly valid assessment of their registry number based on their serial number and the reg. number range for when it was built.

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Re: Ben Hur USA Numbers

Post by Hammerhead » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:22 pm

GREAT!! I'm glad it is there and your calculations were exact. I just knew they were as I had used the same data base and calculations. With the stampings there can be no argument what the USA number was when it left the factory! Very cool!
1943 White M-3 Halftrack, 1944 CCKW 353, 1945 MB, 1944 Bantam T3,
1945 Ben-Hur 1-ton trailer, MVPA 12610, NRA Life Member


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