The desert reveals more....

[DesertRick]

Now that the weather's cooled off here, I decided to go back out to the desert to get some more cloverleafs and other items. As usual, it seems I find something new out there when I go. Brought them home and rinsed them off. I had some guesses as to what they were, but needed an expert, so I called in Rob L. I sent the photos to him, and he was able to get me started on ID'ing them. Many of you may have/already know what these are.

First off was this hasp latch (I found 2).

Rob says this version is early war. This is one of Rob's sets. He says they're found on many different types of crates...bazooka, hand grenade, shells, etc.-

And this is a bad drawing of how it'd be used-


Next is this domed disc. It may or may not be military. If you know what it is, can you post? The diameter is 6" and about 3/4" high.



Continuing, it seems I came upon a eyelet-lifting plug graveyard. I saw 4 that were partially buried and used my shovel to dig them up. Picked them up, then went to put my shovel tip in the ground and "clunk"...I hit something. Just an inch or two under the sand, there was another one. I started probing the area with the shovel tip and I couldn't go 30 seconds without finding another one. I eventually got tired, plus my wagon was already full and heavy with other items, so I stopped looking. Its 2 of them I found that are interesting (on the right)-


Rob found a reference to the eyelet-lifting plugs in TM 9-1901, page 343. I've been finding the "G" type (left). No picture of what I found, plus, the threaded part is much larger. I started reading, and think I found it. Page 336, paragraph 384a. What it basically says is that fuses are a standard size, but shell nose openings aren't. To fix this, you use an "adapter". Mine happen to have the eyebolt-lifting plugs in them.

Lastly, I found these 2 discs. Painted red on the outside, while 1 had some type of material inside. I took a guess about these, and I was right. They're H.E. shell "base covers" (page 203, paragraph 275)-


and are used for a variety of artillery. "The base cover prevents the hot gases from the propelling charge from reaching the bursting charge of the projectile..."The one on the right has part of its lead caulking on a copper plate. They're then welded or crimped on.

That's it for today. Thanks again to Rob L. for all your help. Couldn't have done it without you.

Eric

[nirvana]

Its amazing how much stuff that the military makes.....to throw away or blow up. Neat stuff. I always enjoy your finds.

[MAVERICK]

Excellent finds as usual, if you find anything for the 155 Howitzer you wish to sell please let me know, many thanks

[DesertRick]

I enjoy finding and sharing these little known pieces of military hardware, although it would be nice to uncover a Pack 75!

As far as 155 stuff goes, I haven't found much. To sell, I've got 1 complete 155mm White Bag Propellant cloverleaf (with washers and wing nut)-

Such as would be used like this-


I also have a second one that's almost complete. The wing nut was frozen on, and when I tried to remove it, it broke off leaving only 3/8" of the original 1-1/4" of threads on the rod.

I've got 14 of just the ends. I do have parts to make replica rods, washers and wing nuts. It won't look right without the tubes, though, but the exposed ends will look correct.

I might be able to get some original white bag propelling charge tubes. The problem with those are
1. That they're all filled with sand
and
2. Over the years, the tar like substance used to help keep them moisture proof has melted and gone into the lip of the tube cap, practically sealing it permanently. I've got a set of 3 at home, but I couldn't get the caps off, so they're displayed with sand in them! I should try a blow dryer on it to loosen the seal.

I can get as many fibre tube endcaps as you want for both the White and Green bag tubes-



And I've got 31 lifting plugs-


I'd be willing to sell one of the lifting plugs with the adapter, but it's undergoing rust removal right now (using apple vinegar) and will be bare metal when it's done. I'm keeping the other rusty one.

I'll be going back out there soon, when the little rain we're getting passes thru and the wind dies down (it's been knocking semi's over).

Rick

[DesertRick]

Finding some new items made me want to go back out again, so last week I did (before the rains). Again, found some more new items...some of which I'll need your help in I.D.'ing.

First, another base cover. This one's more colorful. It, too, has 1/2 the lead shielding inside.


Then, these rings. They're usually grouped together on the ground. They had rubber on them and I think they were part of the "Green Bag" propelling charge tubes.



Rick

[DesertRick]

Well, it's now cooling down in the desert, so yesterday I made a trip out to the area about a mile from where I usually go. This doesn't have the same quantity of items, but has different things. Problem is, most of it is buried, rusted or bent. No tubes whatsoever.

I think I've posted these before in another thread, but I found a few more of the 75mm "Pack Howitzer" encaps (as opposed to the lots of 75mm HOW I usually find)-







I also found some more of the 60mm mortar bulk tube endcaps, that held 6 rounds per tube-


More of the blank ends (which I haven't ever seen on any of the existing tubes before). Found a few that were 75mm howitzer sized and 1 3" GUN sized-


Lastly, the new stuff. As I've shown before, I've found quite a few 3 INCH GUN tubes and endcaps-


This time I found 3 INCH AA GUN endcaps-


And to compliment the 155mm Howitzer propelling charge (both white and green bag) endcaps I have, I found 2 of these-


Haven't done any research on them yet, but If you know about them, please post!

Rick

[tranham]

Curious, they were obviously firing a lot of ordnance there. Have you been down range and found projectiles?

[DesertRick]

Don't know if they did any firing there. It's hard to tell what happened out there because there was also some building done nearby and you can't tell who did what and when. At some point a ranch was built close by after the tube stacking (they used the securing rods of the cloverleafs to build their fences!). But there is an area partially within the stacking area that was scraped clean. If they did any type of firing, this is most likely place it would be. The ranchers scraped areas for themselves, so this area where any firing might've taken place could've actually been done later by the ranchers. Plus, this scraped area has very little Army related trash on it, so I don't know. The trash that is there might've been wind-blown in from another area, as I've come to learn.

The stacking area was never cleared of brush or levelled. All the tubes are filled with either small gravel (the artillery shell tubes) or small wood chips (the propelling charge tubes) and are stacked in what I'd call "raw desert". They might've brought a bulldozer in to create the few roads, but that's it. Never found much proof that anyone was stationed there. The 2 things I did find was some comm wire running the length of a couple of the stacking aisles and some tubes were laid out in a rectangular shape, with a (door?) opening at one side. Maybe some type of tent office outline?

Since the tubes are filled with gravel (might be from the area) and wood chips (definitely not from the area) my theory is that the shells and propelling bags were used at one of the Army's Camp firing ranges within a few hundred miles of where they're stacked now (think that if they were used in the Desert Training Area, they would've left them there as they had the space). Wherever that was, that area was getting filled up with all these empty tubes. They had lots of people with nothing to do and were filling up the firing area with trash, so they made them fill the tubes with gravel/wood chips (possibly to simulate their original weights or to stop them from blowing out of trucks while in transport?). Whatever the case, they were then transported to this area and stacked, out in what was then "the middle of the desert". Kept people busy and they got rid of their trash...maybe a "training exercise"?

I imagine the thing to do would be to get the wood chips analyzed as to the area they came from. Wonder how much that would cost?

Rick

[DesertRick]

Well, not the regular place I visit, and found nothing too unusual. This time I went out to some of Patton's old stomping grounds, out by Joshua Tree National Forest. Found some unlisted encampments, bivouacs, training areas, etc.
First off...if anyone needs some WWII Army nails, I can get you thousands! Just visiting the Divisional Camps (Essex, Young, Coxcomb, etc.), that's basically all there is. Most everything else at the camps has been picked up long ago.

Found an unfired .50cal cartridge (bullet missing) in one training area. Next, I visited an encampment that may/may not have been WWII era. In 1964 Exercise Desert Strike happened and covered much of the same areas as the Desert Training Center (DTC...later known as California-Arizona Maneuver Area [CAMA]). Not much is known about those exercise camp locations that I know of (not like the Patton camps, etc.). One Desert Strike camp is out by Ludlow, CA, just north of the I-40. It has the same rock aligned streets, etc. as the earlier WWII camps. Some of these have been mis-identified as being WWII era. Anyway, there wasn't too much refuse at this camp area. Did find a couple of cans which may be WWII era. Maybe you can help with the ID?
This was a tall can of Tomato Juice-



This is a short can, about 2.5" x 2.5"-



Visited some other areas, but one that stood out was a live fire exercise area. Again, at first I didn't know what era it was from until I started finding shrapnel. Saw lots of (perhaps) foxholes or latrines, maybe vehicle emplacements (bulldozed out areas with dirt at one end). Since this is in a volcanic area, there's lots of rocks on the ground. You can also see where
it looks like the soldiers raked the rocks away to make a smooth area for tents, sleeping bags. A few campfire rings made of stacked rocks (could also be postwar, as I also found a little stuff from the 70's). If anyone's interested, I can post pics of these.

First thing I found was this fuze-

On it it reads "FUZE P.D." and the other side has "LOT SCP-15-76 8-43". Now I knew what era this was from. Found bits and pieces of 60mm (I think) mortar rounds-


Mortar primer-


Mortar fuzes. Looks to have 3 lines of writing. "P.A.", then "F. M52", and "LOT ?-89 P.A. 5-42"


Last 2 items I don't what they are. Maybe someone can ID them.
This is something that was screwed on using its threads. Has rounded edge on top. Is 3.5" wide by 1-3/4" high-


No clue whatsoever as to this. About 1-1/4" high by 1-1/4" at its narrowest, 1-3/4" at its widest-



That's it for now!

DesertRick

[Mike McCrea]

Hi Rick,
The last pic is a plunger for a practice mine fuze.

[DesertRick]

Thanks, Mike. That's 100% dead on!

Rick