M116 75mm Pack Howitzer Legalities

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Warbird Kid
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M116 75mm Pack Howitzer Legalities

Post by Warbird Kid » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:02 am

Hey All, our Air Museum received a donation from the town last month. What a donation! A beautiful 1943 M116 75mm Pack Howitzer. It's been demilled via welds but we haven't received any documentation to go along with it. My father and I operate our Jeep out of the museum, but tow the museum's Cannon around.

What are the legalities with this If there was an accident?
Would it fall under our insurance or the museums?
Would we need to get a license plate for the cannon like a trailer?

Any help would be appreciative!

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Re: M116 75mm Pack Howitzer Legalities

Post by Ralph Lovett » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:44 am

The main problem is that welds do not equal a de-militarization. Only destroying the breech ring or removal of the breech-ring or other ATF NFA approved methods can do that.

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W. Winget
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Re: M116 75mm Pack Howitzer Legalities

Post by W. Winget » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:08 am

1st any answer here is only as good as the electrons that transmitted it.
Any Lawyer for a claimant against you would find a way to get you to pay for their victim no matter what protective methods you took.

That said, the vehicle operator is responsible for operating the vehicle in a safe manner with owner responsible for registration and insurance, So the insurance would fall on the owner of the vehicle and/or the operator at the time of the incident. Operator has to be Licensed, but also covered by the insurance. If the insurance does not carry the operator under the owners policy, they should not be driving the vehicle.
-If the driver is at fault, the owner can and likely will be sued as well.
- The gun should not require a license plate as it's a limited use type piece of equipment, i.e. power genration equipment here in Va does not need tags, my artilliery has never required them, but that does not mean your DMV would not sell you one, or a PO'd officer might not ticket you for not having a tag...

Calling the insurance rep is the 1st step I'd recommend, as some companies that cover historical military vehicles won't even cover the vehicle if it tows a trailer or equipment (JC Taylor for example) Only yor insurance rep can let you know what's covered.

It's a can of worms that no one usually wants to know or discuss, as we can end up paying a heck of a lot for such a little thing, and how often do you get to tow the gun around (Neat)

Now legalities of a demilled cannon fall under a different discussion, i.e. was it a monument gun under US registry to Center for Military History, was it previously registered before being demilled, was it a State owned piece, it had to come from somewhere, and off of someone's books at some point, etc. You will find that someone eventually will claim ownership, especially after you fix things up.
Get ahold of your insurance and maybe a local lawyer for better (correct) answers is my recommendation.
V/R W Winget

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Re: M116 75mm Pack Howitzer Legalities

Post by gearhead » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:58 am

As far as the gun goes.
Plenty of documented monument guns have been confiscated by the Gov. after the were "sold" to individuals.
Monument guns remain the property of the Gov.
In recent year s many Civil War cannons were sold by cemeteries and towns, some had to be retuned due to ownership disputes.
The most famous case is the "dozer tank" unearthed in NY by an enthusiast and confiscated by the feds, ending up in a Va museum.
Paperwork is everything along with proper current demil, registered museums can receive ownership, still need papers.

My State Farm insurance covers my Converto and Bantam, but they need registered in Pa.

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Re: M116 75mm Pack Howitzer Legalities

Post by GPA2196 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:38 am

I'd be more worried about the prison term for having possession of an unregistered Destructive Device under NFA..... I put my live Pack Howitzer together on a Form 1. It had previously been on a Form 4 but was removed from the registry. This is not something to ignore, the BATF does monitor boards like this. Good Luck.

Tony
1942 Ford GPA (S/N 2196) (FOR SALE)
1942 M1A1 75MM Pack Howitzer (SOLD)
1944 M9A2 Paracaisson (SOLD)
1943 Harley Davidson WLA (SOLD)
1944 Cushman Airborne Scooter (SOLD)
1944 M3A4 Handcart
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Re: M116 75mm Pack Howitzer Legalities

Post by Warbird Kid » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:50 am

I should state that the town's police department, and state office know of its whereabouts, its current condition, and are apparently ok with it. We are already having somebody from ATF coming to inspect it.
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Re: M116 75mm Pack Howitzer Legalities

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:07 am

TACOM is who will decide who keeps it. Best to do it right or have a long face.
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Re: M116 75mm Pack Howitzer Legalities

Post by W. Winget » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:37 am

I'd disagree with the TACOM having rulling authority on all things.
Many were purchased by National Guard units and other State Militia's, and hundreds exported and re-imported without any dealings with TACOM as some quasi-authority for unknown reasons.

Not everything military falls under "Army" commands for collection and distribution. USMC, NAVY especially have their own regs in handling surplus weapons and equipment. If it was a re-import, then State Department had something to do with it, and US Customs in the history of the piece.

Saying 'check with TACOM' is like telling a WWII Jeep Collector that their vehicle may belong to the Army...

As long as the local authorities, the museum and the previous owners are consenting, it's a non-functioning relic weapon, legally obtained, why would anyone sweat this?
W Winget

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Re: M116 75mm Pack Howitzer Legalities

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:42 am

Don't say you were not warned. Gotta tell ya, a lot more Gov't agents can pop out of the woodwork at once than one can keep up with. Been there, done that, and have gray hair to prove it.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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