Is it legal?

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Andy Cole
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Is it legal?

Post by Andy Cole » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:43 am

I am considering building a black powder cannon. I have been a Civil War reenactor for nearly 20 years. I have been certified by the Sate Park Service to fire BP cannons on historic sites during displays and living histories. I have done that on numerous occasions. Specific cannons that I have manned are 3" ordnance rifles, 10 pound parrots, 6 pound field pieces (original tube), 12 pound napoleon, and a reinforced 32 pound coastal gun.

I also teach machining so don't think this would be a pipe on hay rake wheels.

Anyway, I am considering building a breech loading black powder cannon with about a 1 1/2 inch bore. In CW artillery we use friction primers to ingnite the propellant.

Here is my question........if I make an interupted screw breech, using powder bags...NOT CASINGS or other metalic containers,...is it legal to use .22 caliber blanks with an integral hammer as the ignition source? The .22 rimfire cartridge was designed and built WAY prior to 1898.

I don't want to build this thing, and be playing in the yard and then end up the gray bar hotel, because of a .22 blank ignition system changing the designation of a black powder cannon into a DD.

Where can I find the info IN WRITING from the ATF?

Thanks
1943 Willys MB285433 D.O.D. 12-3-1943
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Re: Is it legal?

Post by Destructo6 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:57 pm

Go to the BATFE's website, specifically the Firearms Technology Branch and search.

If you don't find what you require, submit your question.
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Re: Is it legal?

Post by dwing » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:05 pm

This is a very specific questions and probably worth a letter to technology branch to get a ruling. In today's environment, using a 22 blank as an ignition source seems ill advised to me. Friction primer wouldn't bother me personally as that is definitely a primitive ignition. Anything that hits a primer and fires would bother me especially if it was breech loading. again, I think this is getting close to the edge and you probably do want a letter ruling from technology branch. Technology branch of ATF is located at NFA branch of ATF in Virginia. Give them a call. 304.616.4500
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Andy Cole
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Re: Is it legal?

Post by Andy Cole » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:44 pm

I wonder why the .22 rim fire which is hammer fired, would be any different than a #11 or musket sized percussion cap which are also hammer fired. There were percussion locks on cannon for years. I have a class I FFL, and I have sent a text to the ATF agent that normally does my compliance checks. I will also hit up the Firearms technology branch as well. I just wanted to know if someone here knew something about this. Fear not. I will post results here when, if, I ever get a definitive answer.
1943 Willys MB285433 D.O.D. 12-3-1943
1951 M100 trailer D.O.D. 3/51
1951 M37 Truck D.O.D. 5-28-1951
M3 37MM ATG
M3A4 Hand Cart
Wife D.O.Delivery 7-21-1979
Boy D.O.Delivery. 2-15-2007
Girl D.O.Delivery. 4-9-2009
Girl D.O.Delivery. 10-23-2012

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Re: Is it legal?

Post by W. Winget » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:54 am

My understanding is that by regulation the Gun itself must be of a design of 1898 or earlier and maintain it's design. They had various versions of non-friction primered guns prior to 1898. Designing and utilizing a modernized version of a 3" ordnance piece with a breech block and firing pin would sound incorrect, but that's what the 3.2" gun designs were prior to 1898.

I think they do get picky about the guns like the 1.62" hotchkiss, where it had two options for firing as it was around so long. Friction primer or later modified firing pin guns.
A letter will hopefully provide clarity, but it may also be just like the AHC act and keep confusion going for a long time.

I want to convert my 1893 Krupp bag gun to fire the .22 rimfire blanks for ignition, (simple screw in vent piece, so no permanent mod here) as the last batch of friction primers I bought basically rotted over a year (not stored in a sealed can with dissecant) and 8-9 of 10 pulled failed to fire at the last Newville event I took my gun to. So having a reliable (and cheap) ignition system is a plus for that type situation. I gave no consideration to asking about this as a modification to the piece, as it's not, only the reliability is effected (improved) no rate of fire or change in what comes out the noisy end.

V/R
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Re: Is it legal?

Post by CBR900 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:55 am

Hello there Andy! I do not know the answer to your question. But, I thought of an old site I once viewed that might be able to help you find the answer:

http://www.buckstix.com/HowitzerLoading.htm

Not easy site to navigate, but it shows the construction of a cannon UNLIKE your planned gun: the builder made a BP mountain howitzer & detailed the construction.

SOMEPLACE on that site, he mentions he just our-right bought another cannon barrel from a place that makes BP cannons. I'd give that company a call with your question; it would be there business to know provided they have a breach loading model like you plan to build.

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Re: Is it legal?

Post by 37mm Gunner » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:43 pm

Andy, I too was a CW Reenactor, National CW Artillery Association certified on black powder cannons. Here's a couple of tid-bits...

First and most important when the BATF gets involved it's sometimes hard to get a straight answer from them as they do not want to set a standard or precedent based on one case. Their basic answer in most cases is "You can't do that, it's illegal". Don't forget, we live in a post 9/11 world.

What you build falls into one of two categories, modern armament or historic reproduction. An historic reproduction must have authentic loading and firing correct to the original. The only allowed modification is size. That's why 2/3 and 1/2 scale black powder cannons are built. If you build a modified design of an historic piece i.e.: percussion cap ignition instead of a friction primer you no longer have a reproduction of an historic piece, thus it's a modern armament. There is a lot of grey area when it comes to building a modern armament for personal use (That's a question for the BATF). If you build it for yourself then decide to sell it, then build yourself another and decide to sell that one you are now considered to be a manufacturer and that requires a Federal Firearms license.

A lot of the National Firearms Act is based on "fixed cartridge" ammunition and there is a lot of grey area when it comes to muzzle loaders. This includes "destructive devices".

I hope this helps. As mentioned by other posters, I recommend that you contact the technical section of the BATF and hopefully you'll get someone who understands your interest and will guide you appropriately.

Here's the link to the BATF web-site.. http://www.atf.gov/
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Re: Is it legal?

Post by lt.luke » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:52 pm

CBR900 wrote:Hello there Andy! I do not know the answer to your question. But, I thought of an old site I once viewed that might be able to help you find the answer:

http://www.buckstix.com/HowitzerLoading.htm

Not easy site to navigate, but it shows the construction of a cannon UNLIKE your planned gun: the builder made a BP mountain howitzer & detailed the construction.

SOMEPLACE on that site, he mentions he just our-right bought another cannon barrel from a place that makes BP cannons. I'd give that company a call with your question; it would be there business to know provided they have a breach loading model like you plan to build.
The fact that they "hunt" deer with that cannon seems a bit less than legal to me. I'm not sure I'd trust their opinion on this issue.

Don't forget the whitworth guns from the CW when you talk to the ATF.

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Re: Is it legal?

Post by High_Order1 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:00 pm

The problem is the .22 shell.

Percussion primers are just that; a .22 round can also house a powder charge. The reason so-called percussion actuated hammers get away with it I think is because the crimping on the round makes it harder to convert to one that can house a bullet.

All of the rimfire regulation comes from zip guns, so it's a little antiquated.

Instead of having to stock .22 blanks, why not use a small pistol primer? The projects I've built we've tried 209 primers, they have waaay too much ass for most things, even with venting.

Or, what about an inline nipple setup like on cap rifles?

Lastly, I'd be careful querying the ATFE. You really don't want to involve The Man in your life any more than you have to.


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Re: Is it legal?

Post by Perry Locke » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:17 pm

Lets get to the basics here. The ATF doesn't care how it is primed or the model or design or the type of powder. They care if it is loaded from the front or rear. If it is loaded from the front have all the fun you want, build anything. If it is breach loaded and over .50 diameter it is a destructive device and requires a $200 tax stamp from the ATF after a police signature and fingerprint card. After you get approved you can build it. They would probably want to know basically what you want to build, type of action, bore diameter, barrel length, serial number on receiver(breach ring). Your results may vary in local areas, doubt they would approve you to build one in DC or downtown Chicago. So if you want to launch those bowling balls over grandpa's hay field have at it but if you want to build a half scale German 88 you better get a ATF tax stamp ahead of time. Perry Locke


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