Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby cmpman » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:49 pm

If there was one thing I learned in the army, it's that there is likely a manual for just about everything. Just the other day I found a couple of CDs that have the Cdn parts manuals for all the C1 howitzer, the telescopes, the mounts, the aiming circles....it even has the NSNs for the legs for the transit tripods.

It did go for a bit more money than I wanted to pay, and I have no doubt that with some patience, one will come my way at much less.
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby rnixartillery » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:16 pm

Rob,

I know of a dealer over in the States who has a complete set of sight mounts and sights for the gun,I dont know the price but if you are interested I can give you his details and you can contact him direct.

Rob......................rnixartillery.
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby cmpman » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:49 pm

There was a complete set on gunbroker over the last 6 months for "buy it now" of $4500, or a minimum reserve of $3750. Too rich for my blood. I don't think I even have $4500 into this whole gun at this point. Besides, a guy I know possibly has a M4A1 squirreled away for me so I just need the M21A1, and maybe the M23. I already have the two telescopes, although the panoramics I have are US. The Canadian gun used a model designated C1. Not sure what the differences are between it and a M12A7S....I'll have to look at the NSNs in the parts manual and see.
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby cmpman » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Well, it seems to be Christmas in January. I had a bit of luck with a surplus find.
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From bottom to top and then left to right:
2 lower halves (newer style) of the aiming posts (I already have the uppers)
one original wood and brass cleaning rod (the new ones are made of aluminum/magnesium)
the trail handspike
a rammer jammer(proper name: tool, extracting and ramming)
a recoil oil filler gun
wrench, fuze, M18
M13 firing lock with trigger shaft and an extractor
a rammer
a mint M27 fuze wrench (looks like a WW2 US ordnance tag, but the wrench has the 50s Canadian stamp)
and, lastly, a M36 instrument light.

These items will fill a large hole in the tool kit. I still need to find one more (longer) cleaning rod for the trail. I guess the first rod and the second rod are different.
I also got another telescope storage box off ebay with both internal brackets, and it even came with another panoramic telescope.
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby rnixartillery » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:21 am

Very nice Haul ! The second cleaning stave of the pair is slightly longer and has brass on one end only.

Its certainly coming together.

Rob....................rnixartillery.
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby cmpman » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:04 pm

I noticed that in the manual. Now that I know exactly what ends I am looking for, I can go to the scrapyard and search for just the one other end I need. Turned out I had an early (1963) Canadian howitzer manual downstairs in my bookshelves that has some great photos in it, including one of the kit layout. It is a great snapshot in time as it shows all the Canadian tooling, including the shovel, pickaxe, and axe. Too often our manuals are merely reprints of the US manuals but this one seems to have been Canadian produced. Some of our tooling back then was still more akin to the British equivalent rather than the US versions.

I also found that I had the parts manual for the towing light for the gun. All my years of packratting every manual as the workshops threw them out is paying off.
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby Canadian Gunner » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:37 am

Hi Rob:

You continue to amaze us all... WOW!

My Number 1 when I was a young sprog Gunner, used to call the handspike his, "Tool, Adreneline Flow Inducing, C1" and he would quite happily smack us with the blunt end for doing dumb stuff... worse yet was when he would simply smile and say, Number 3 (or what ever position the dumby was in) sixteen, GO!" and with great alacrity the offending gun number would grab a hand spike, raise it vertically over his head and trot off for sixteen (or what ever number specified) laps of the battery gun position. This was in the days of 75 to 100 metres between guns so you had a six hundred metre run on each leg of the laps! You can bet we learned quickly to do it His way and only His way on His Gun! :D

Ubique! Mike
Ubique! ("Everywhere", the sole Battle Honour of the Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery)

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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby cmpman » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:34 am

Well, holidays are over so back to the search for 105 items. Here is a shot of a couple of the items that showed up in the last little while.
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There is the M21A1 telescope mount, the M23 telescope mount, and 4 of the B2220 bearings.

The M23 mount was a pleasant surprise from John, who I am beginning to owe a few favors to. It will need a bit of overhaul (the grease has severely thickened and the pin holding the knob is a bit loose) but is complete and should work out fine.

The M21A1 is one of a batch that have shown up on the market lately. Buyers beware they are missing their cross leveling portion, but even so are still a really good find. Mine appears to be mint, and with a low two digit serial number. It was likely cannibalized at some point and then released onto the surplus market. I'll likely make up a solid block to replace the cross leveling assembly until something does show up. It may be possible to modify a Vickers level to do the job...we'll see.

The bearings (Torrington or Timken B-2220)are for the T portion on the top of the equilibrator assembly. The assembly required two of them. I generally order double of the items I need which is why 4 are in the photo. Dimensions are 1-3/8 ID X 1-5/8 inches OD by 1-1/4 long. Got these off ebay for around $6 each..the shipping cost almost as much as the bearings.

I also had a gift dropped off of a set of the latest issue towing lights and cable with the composite lights. Unfortunately it had the 7 pin connector broken off the end of the cable where it attaches to the lamp bracket. I'll have to research the number for that connector. The number on the receptacle is MS-3102-R20-15P so I think the mate to it would be a MS3106-R20-15P....I'll have to keep an eye on ebay for a reasonably priced one. The Canadian military is now mounting the lamp units directly onto the gun shields (took them 60 years to figure out that was the best way) so there may be more of these coming onto the surplus market yet. I'll add a photo of the light later when I get out to the shop with my camera.

Anyway, today is a big day for me. I am finally getting the wife's stingray out of the shop after a frame change and associated repairs, so I can finally get the bay back to work on the gun. The vette is a beautiful icon of Americana, but I prefer things that are a little more (olive) drab myself.
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby cmpman » Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:41 pm

Managed to find a few more items for the howitzer. In the photo below on the right you will see two of the elevation gears. The used one is Canadian marked, while the NOS one is US made. Kind of leaves me in a quandary as to which one to use. Also to the right of them is the rearmost elevation handwheel, also Canadian marked.
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Also in that photo is the toolkit for filling and servicing the recouperator. This is an earlier kit than I am used to. Most of it is NOS from the 50s, and there are still tags present from that era. Also in the photo is a few other misc tools, a spring scale, a pull-back quick release tool, a wrench for a 106 recoiless (I believe) and as well a part of a Bofors 40mm bore gauge.
The tool box itself is quite nice, and with leather latch straps. They don't make em like that anymore.
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And here, as promised earlier, is a shot of the towing lights which I recently acquired. Canada is moving the lights onto the shields, which I think may be a mistake. We already had vehicles run into the barrels, and that was when the lights were mounted at the muzzle. With the lights on the shields, there is even more likelihood that the drivers behind will not take into consideration a barrel sticking 6 feet out at eye level.
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We also started on the second version of the barrel. Again it started out as a Leopard barrel. This time I got the actual military drawings for the M2A2 barrel, so we will be able to cut a chamber and the breech threads. Anyway, here goes a quick series of shots on the barrel turning.
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It is a lot more time consuming making a proper barrel over the last one we did where we were not concerned with a lot of the measurements. We spent about 16 hours on this one, and likely have another 10 hours to go. Them biggest difference on this barrel over the last one is that I have moved the work forward on the leopard barrel so we have completely cleared the leopard chamber, which is different from the 105 howitzer. As well, there is a lot of throat erosion on this barrel, so hopefully the cutting of the new chamber will clean up the scoring in that area.

As well, I took a stab at straightening out one of the main shield brackets. Sure enough I had to break the welds and disassemble part of it. I only tack welded it back for now, but the shield appears to be properly aligned. I will take apart the second main shield bracket (and take photos this time) and also tack weld it so I can check out the alignment. If they are out a bit, I should be able to "steer" the angle of the bracket by welding one side first and letting it shrink.

The worst of winter should be over, and I can't wait to get back out to the sandblasting and painting.
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby pdqf » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:21 am

Looking for barrel 105 Howitzer breech end,Cut PDQF ( pdqf@hotmail.com ) PH 515-442-3126
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby cmpman » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:36 pm

Haven't updated in a while, so here goes. Not much more work done, although spring seems to have come very early this year and I actually started sandblasting and painting last weekend.
Here are a few of the things I have picked up for the gun in the last month or so:
Here is the cover for the M21A1 and panoramic scope. Also a M26 fuze setter, NOS in it's case.
Image
Below is my newly acquired M19 instrument light attached to the M12A7 telescope.
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Below is my equilabrator assy. I managed to find commercial equivalent for the bearings on ebay. For the open eye end, use a Roll-away D206 bearing, and for the T end, use qty 2 of Timken B2202. I have started turning a new shaft to replace the original travel lock, which is a bit pitted after sitting outside for 30 years.
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Here are the fruits of another trip to the scrapyard on the weekend. I grabbed an extra elevation arc so I could get the bottom stop. I also found a couple of the M-series early towing lights, and an extra cord with the plug for my later towing light assy. The lights will need some new straps, but otherwise I think they will turn out OK.
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I found the three bore brushes on the left....there are lots more out at the yard. They are sitting next to the normal 105 brush that we are all used to. The long ones will thread onto the normal cleaning staves. Has anyone seen these before? Are they for the tanks? Or 106 recoiless? US or German? Also in the photo is my recently acquired storage bag for the brush.
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And for me, the one thing that made the whole day walking around worthwhile. I had noticed that the Canadian howitzers had this little extra hump on the cover of the telescope stowage case that mounts on the front of the shields. I found this sitting in the cab of an old duece and a half. I think the little hump might be for clearance for the C1 panoramic scope, which is very similar to the M12A7s. I have not spotted this style on any of the US made howitzers, although the NSN is the same for each. The one on the left is the Cdn box, the one on the right is the normal US one.
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Thats about it. One more Cdn specific item off the list, but still on the lookout for more pieces, especially for the elevation gear train. Naturally, as the shopping list gets shorter, the parts get harder to find.
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby cmpman » Sun May 13, 2012 9:04 pm

Been a while since I updated the thread. A few more trips to my favorite scrapyard has netted a couple more pieces, mostly out of the brass pile. I have founf the majority of the bushings for the howitzer, including those that I made up in previous posts. Oh well, teach me for jumping the gun before I spent the normal years or two scrounging up pieces.

One of the highlights of my finds was the forward elevation gearbox housing. This find made my day, although I still have to find the rear gearbox housing, and am still missing 3 shafts to complete the elevation geartrain.
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I now have the gun outside and am removing the shields and their brackets one section at a time for sandblasting. This will go a long way to making the gun look presentable.
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Found some interesting markings on the shields: most are stamped "soft side" on the inner side, while the side facing the battle has "hard face" painted on the shield prior to it's completion. My guess is so the hinges were not put on the wrong side, resulting in the soft side facing the battle. My theory on this "hard side/soft side" thing is that the forward side would be hardened to prevent penetration of bullets or shrapnel, while the soft side would resist the spalling effect of the items hitting the hard side. If both sides were hardened, it could result in pieces being thrown from the plates and hitting the crew.
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An important point for anyone else trying to straighten these plates: they have a real memory, and if you simply try to bend them, they will suddenly crack. You have to use some heat to get them back to reasonably straight.
After sandblasting, I have welded on another Canadian item: a range data plate which goes on the left shield. I recovered this plate from a more modern shield. We also used this plate on our 155s. The plates show up in the original Canadian howitzer manuals, and has a Canadian NSN, so I believe it to be unique to our guns. We did not use the large data plate on the right shield, although our plates have the holes in them to hold it on.
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The primer is drying now on these plates, and after work tomorrow they will get their coat of semi gloss green. I'll update this thread when all the plates are painted and back on.
Last edited by cmpman on Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby dwing » Mon May 14, 2012 8:06 am

Very good to see your gun out and about. Looks very very good. I am very impressed how far you came. When you first started out with a pile of pieces I didn't know if that was going to work or not. VEry impressed. that is tough to find all of the small pieces to make it come together.
If your gun doesn't leak oil, it's time for a bigger gun.
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby Packhow75 » Sun May 20, 2012 5:40 am

cmpman wrote:There was a complete set on gunbroker over the last 6 months for "buy it now" of $4500, or a minimum reserve of $3750. Too rich for my blood. I don't think I even have $4500 into this whole gun at this point. Besides, a guy I know possibly has a M4A1 squirreled away for me so I just need the M21A1, and maybe the M23. I already have the two telescopes, although the panoramics I have are US. The Canadian gun used a model designated C1. Not sure what the differences are between it and a M12A7S....I'll have to look at the NSNs in the parts manual and see.


This post had me thinking... and having had a rummage in the shed... hey presto... 1 x Canadian CDN No1 Mk2 Panoramic Telescope.

It is complete and in good condition - optics nice and clear - also... is for sale.

Tim
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1944 Orme-Evans 10cwt Trailer (British Airborne)
1943 75mm Pack Howitzer M1A1 on Carriage M8 (British Airborne Modified)
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Postby cmpman » Sun May 20, 2012 6:37 am

Tim
A PM is on it's way.
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