Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Towed Artillery, Wanted, For Sale,(NO EBAY ITEMS) and Knowledge Base
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cmpman
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by cmpman » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:46 pm

Funny thing was that in my short 23 years in the Cdn military, we never had overhead hoists in the shops until the last couple years, when Gantrys were issued in order to remove the turrets from the new LAV3s. Prior to that any barrel work was either done by cherry pickers, wrecker booms, or good old manpower.

The weather surprised everyone today and hit a blamy 10° Celsius today (50°F) so I was able to get a bit of work done outdoors. I did a quick sandblast of the ends of the trails today along with the lunette assembly. This way I can tow the axle/pintle in and out of the shop without worrying about it tipping over. As well I can work on the various brackets and clamps on the trails over the winter. Now it's starting to look like a gun. I'll add some pictures in a bit.


cmpman
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by cmpman » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:59 pm

Well, sure enough the snow came today, so sandblasting season is now over. I did manage to get the upper carriage bracket blasted....just have to splash a little paint on it before installing the bushings.

Also spotted an artillery tool chest out at the local scrapyard. I noticed it last time I was out because it had a battery marking on it, along with some scope serial numbers inside the lid. When I got home I spotted the identical box in the 105 parts manual. I picked it up this weekend along with a portion of a traverse mechanism that I also found.
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Anyway, here are a couple shots of where I sit now.

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There was a large 6 on one trail, and a large 5 painted on the other trail. I note a corresponding serial number stamped on each leg so it looks like the legs were serial numbered to the carriage. I have serial numbers 5 and 6 data plates from the arcs. The inspectors stamps are ones that I recognize from Cdn service, with the exception of the stamp shown in the center of the photo below. Is this some form of the US flaming bomb? It may be possible that sorel did not build the entire guns, and brought up some parts from the USA.
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Photo of the trails attached. All of the brackets are present on the trails and are between seized and somewhat free. I will disassemble them before sandblasting.
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by geargrinder » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:55 am

Thanks for taking the time to post the progress you have made
on your 105. After studying photos of 105's I built a replica to pull
behind my GMC in parades. So it is really interesting to get a good
look at the individual parts.
My Wife brought home a tool box just like the one in the photo.
The paper tool list for a 75mm is still in the lid.

cmpman
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by cmpman » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:39 pm

R Cubed wrote:Good project you have there, how is it progressing? lets have some more pics. You are lucky to have an uncut recouperator my one has had a hole burnt in the gas chamber and the end thread cut off hydraulic ram, if you have some pics of this bit and the two nuts which go either side of the fixing plate on the carriage this would be of help to me.

Good luck keep at it.
Sorry for the late reply to this request, but better late than never. Here are some shots of the requested area:
1: Below is an original nut on a gun located at the Shilo Museum.
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Below is a shot of the nut I got off ebay. For you southerners, the white stuff in the photo is snow, indicating low temperatures.
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And lastly, here is a shot of the threaded portion of the shaft with the nut off, so you can get an idea of the length.
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I have been waiting for some bronze shims to show up for the pintle, so to fill in some time I decided I would disassemble the traverse mechanism and start the rebuild on it. It has been sitting outside for around 35 years or so, and the military was nice enough to remove the grease nipple before disposing of it so it could fill up with moisture. A little heat freed up the bearing on the front mount. I am going to replace the bearing with a 5205 2RS sealed bearing. They can be had for about $10 from ebay, or up to $40 from your local jobber.
Below I am removing the cover from the bearing housing and in the second photo I am pressing out the sleeve and bearing from the traverse shaft.
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Next is the main worm gear assy for the traverse. I had to remove a set screw before removing the front cover. One will note that on most of this style of traverse mechanism, it appears to have a bunch of holes on the housing revealing the inside lead lining. Apparently, when the mechanism becomes sloppy, you can punch the lead via these holes to tighten up the mechanism and repair the wear.
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Hopefully I am not boring too many of you with all these photos. Too often I do an entire restoration and never take a photo......thought I would try to capture this one.
Last edited by cmpman on Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cmpman
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by cmpman » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:41 pm

geargrinder wrote:Thanks for taking the time to post the progress you have made
on your 105. After studying photos of 105's I built a replica to pull
behind my GMC in parades. So it is really interesting to get a good
look at the individual parts.
My Wife brought home a tool box just like the one in the photo.
The paper tool list for a 75mm is still in the lid.
Like so many of the military boxes, I guess the artillery tool box serves the purpose for more than one gun. Mine is by no means a pristine example, but I am still happy to find it. I am not even sure our military still uses these boxes....a guy I asked said they now just use old mortar ammo boxes for the purpose.

dwing
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by dwing » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:27 pm

never to many photos of an artillery project. keep them coming. others benefit from your experience.
If your gun doesn't leak oil, it's time for a bigger gun.

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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by P40NWarhawk » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:13 pm

To me the more pictures the better. They will help me out when I get to build mine from scratch. It might help to give a perspective of size if a scale was shown in the picture also. I will continue watching this with a lot interest! If there might be the need for finding parts or resources I maybe of some help.

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R Cubed
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by R Cubed » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:51 am

Hi CMPman, thanks very much for posting those pics, that will be a great help. Here is a pic of all I have got left of the thread on the end of the ram. I am thinking of getting a bolt of the correct size and welding this on to the end of the ram where the original threaded part has been gas axed off.
IMG_5226r.jpg
IMG_5226r.jpg (97.8 KiB) Viewed 2176 times

I will also be very interested in how to fill the hydraulic fluid and also the nitrogen gas into the recuperator, as you have done this would you be able to share you experience. What to use and how to carry out the opperation.
CCKW 352 B1
1944 M2A1 105mm Howitzer
Onan 3.0Kw Generator
No5 British Army Cooker
U.S. G.P. Medium Ridge Tent
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by cmpman » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:59 pm

Well to make up for the above average temps in November, I now get to deal with some below average temps for December.
As shown earlier in the thread, I managed to get the traverse mechanism all apart. The shaft was quite pitted, so I spun 1/8" off it on the lathe, and as a result will have to make up one new size bushing and use a non-standard seal for the actual body of the traverse. Here are the parts lined up waiting for the new pieces.
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Below is a shot of some of the smaller pieces, and the many inspectors stamps. I was a little surprised to find the SIL mark on even the bushings.
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Some ordering from e-bay and amazon managed to get me everything I needed. Can anyone actually remember what life was like not that many years back before the internet and computers? Here are the old pieces with their new counterparts, primed and waiting for assembly.
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I now have the traverse together, but forgot to take a photo. I am still working on the two mounts for it, so I'll get some photos later on when I figure out how to paint at -25°C. Problem is I heat my shop with a wood furnace, and while it maintains the shop temps to tropical, the danger of a flash fire precludes anything more than the occasional spraybombs.
I'll add more shots of the recoil mech as I get some of the challenges on the mounts figured out. The biggest one is that I am missing the two small caps that keep the traverse attached to the bracket on the top carriage.

For concurrent activity, a friend who works at a local machine shop offered to spin me a M2A2 barrel from out of an old surplus 105mm Leopard barrel. We headed off to our old base and measured up a C1 (M2A2) that was a recent addition to the local museum. I cut the barrel in half just behind the evacuator, and last Friday ran it into his work. After about 20 hours work on the big lathes, here is what we ended up with:
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Note that we left the extra material at the Leopard breech for now. This will be to compensate for the missing weight of the breech ring until I find something down the road. When that time comes we'll remove the barrel, shorten the breech end, and put on whatever threads required for the breech I end up with. In the meantime I may make up a dummy ring out of steel plates. If anyone is sitting on a spare demilled ring, let me know. While a Canadian ring would be my first choice, it isn't really the kind of thing one can be too choosy on.
I brought in the recoil mech today and married the two together. It was a little snug at first, but once the grease warmed up a bit, the two went together and the barrel nut cinched her in tight. I suppose the fact that by then the barrel was at 75°F while the recoil was at -13°F did not help the fit. I think we turned it at about .005" clearance for the one critical surface
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Below you can see my work buddy inspecting the work.
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The leopard barrel had sat outside for a few decades unprotected, so now I am going to see if I can get some shine back into the bore. In the shot below you can see the M2A2s trademark signature of the set back rifling. This, along with the pronounced swell for the last 6 inched of the barrel, were to prevent cracking which had occurred on earlier versions of this gun.
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I'll put a bit of elbow grease into the rifling, but if worst comes to worse, it will just get sandblasted in the spring and then coated with the silver POR15 that is available now.
Last edited by cmpman on Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

dwing
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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by dwing » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:27 pm

My goodness. that is some outstanding work on the barrel. I am really shocked that you were able to get that done in that manner. Looks really good.
If your gun doesn't leak oil, it's time for a bigger gun.

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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by cmpman » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:21 pm

Laun (the guy that did the machine work) is the same fellow who helped me select the parts from the scrapyard in the first place. He is an ex-wpns tech. While there were 3 lathes at the shop that could handle this project (we used two of them on various operations to do it) the guys there mentioned that this was the largest piece that had been on them. I think the weight of the barrel before turning was somewhere around 1500 pounds. We took out 2-1/2 wheelbarrows full of chips and shavings from this project. The older lathe we started on could take 1/4 inch of metal off in a pass.

The downside to the leo barrel is that it is chambered for the tank round. Unless I go with a L7 breech ring, this barrel is destined to be blank fire only due to the wrong chamber for regular 105 ammunition.

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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by dwing » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:47 pm

1/4 inch pieces. Wow.

Does canada allow for firing of projectiles out of large bore guns( for civilians?)
If your gun doesn't leak oil, it's time for a bigger gun.

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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by cmpman » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:33 am

Yes and no on the large bore stuff. When our Liberal government implemented the long arms registry, I registered a 76mm Sherman gun just in case they later banned the large bore stuff so I cold be grandfathered into that class. Rumors were always floating around that they were going to ban anything 50 cal and up (never did mind you). A couple years later I went to get it off the registry and the RCMP stated that it was "a barreled weapon that could cause bodily harm" and therefore met the definition of firearm. Therefore it was registered as a non-restricted weapon, just like any old Lee Enfield or Cooey 22 rifle. I know of a few others who had to register their cannons, also non-restricted. However, our long arms registry for non-restricted weapons will soon be a thing of the past (anger over it led to the total demise of our Liberal party.....the Conservatives are now in a majority and have a bill going to third reading to dismantle the non-restricted registry) so the large bore stuff will now be off paper, so to speak. Too bad, because it lent credibility to it's ownership. Don't get me wrong though, I am plenty happy to see the registry go. But that is a whole other topic.

However, we also have the directorate of controlled goods in Canada. Prior to 9-11 it was really un-noticed. However since then it has developed some teeth. Theoretically, almost everything that has military purpose requires the possessor to register, and maintain records to the final disposition of it, as well as meet certain security levels. It primarily comes into play on export, but also applies to possession and production. It seems to work kind of hand in hand with the ITAR controls of the USA. In collectors circles though it is largely ignored.

Ammunition falls under the department of Natural Resources. They have some controls over types of ammo, barring high explosive etc. But solid shot would be OK.

All that said, the ownership and shooting of big bore stuff is really under the radar here. Working mortar tubes are out there, and regularly fired by some. Larger caliber rifles like the Boys 55, the PTRD and PTRS in 14.5mm , and the Lahti 20mm are out there as well and soon will be totally off paper. So it's kind of like the wild west, except that if you dig long enough, you will find a regulation that will ban just about anything. We did actually have some seizures a couple years ago by the RCMP of some M203s because the US felt they were ITAR controlled and not properly imported (although they all cleared customs). End state was they ended up being registered as single shot firearms.

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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by MAVERICK » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:00 pm

Outstanding attention to detail and a very high level of workmanship. Thanks for posting pictures of this great project. Keep up the good work and if I find anything else for the 105 on this side of the pond I'll let you know

Regards
Stuart
(M1 A1 155mm Howitzer, England)
Regards
Maverick,

Always looking for 155mm Howitzer parts, tools and general Artillery equipment from WW2, Korea and Vietnam.

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Re: Canadian C1 105mm Howitzer

Post by cmpman » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:50 am

I appreciate that Stuart. I think the biggest challenge that will be facing me will be components of the elevation geartrain. I need the rearmost two shafts and the short shaft at the center gearbox. As well, I need to find the bronze covers for both gearboxes. I expect to be at that stage this summer, and it will be hard to bypass these items, other than to have the gun in it's travel lock. No doubt many of these items will be out at the scrapyard, but things there are spread out over many acres, and while I have been fairly lucky up to now, it would be wishful thinking that I will find it all.

Below the items I need are circled in red. If anyone can help, it would be appreciated.
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