Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
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Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
I recently did some horse-trading with another tool collector, not a G503 guy, who recently found this odd S-shaped DBE wrench with a “41-W-2068” on the shank.
The ends are both 1/2” milled openings, both set at 15* angles on the shank, like a straight handled DBE wrench.
That allows it to be used to take advantage of the 15* angle and both curves, left or right, to avoid both a handle/hand obstruction (with the elevated shank) and a proximity obstruction (with the curves in the shank) when loosening or tightening a 1/2” fastener. You couldn't just flip it over and use the same end, which would put the handle and your knuckles into the work.
The wrench has no brand, size, or any other markings of any kind. I couldn’t find it any of my references, but thanks to Phil Jones, on the G tools board, it was found in his October 1942 SNL N-19.
EDIT:
According to the N-19, it was part of:
41-T-3367-30 | TOOL-SET, Special, Indian Chain Drive, and...
41-T-3367-45 | TOOL-SET, Special, Indian Shaft Drive
Those weren't on-board kits, but 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Echelon Special tool-sets for servicing the 741 and 841.
Have any of you Indian guys seen it before?
Would anyone like to make an experienced, knowing theory on what fastener on a 741 & 841 it might have been used to turn?
The ends are both 1/2” milled openings, both set at 15* angles on the shank, like a straight handled DBE wrench.
That allows it to be used to take advantage of the 15* angle and both curves, left or right, to avoid both a handle/hand obstruction (with the elevated shank) and a proximity obstruction (with the curves in the shank) when loosening or tightening a 1/2” fastener. You couldn't just flip it over and use the same end, which would put the handle and your knuckles into the work.
The wrench has no brand, size, or any other markings of any kind. I couldn’t find it any of my references, but thanks to Phil Jones, on the G tools board, it was found in his October 1942 SNL N-19.
EDIT:
According to the N-19, it was part of:
41-T-3367-30 | TOOL-SET, Special, Indian Chain Drive, and...
41-T-3367-45 | TOOL-SET, Special, Indian Shaft Drive
Those weren't on-board kits, but 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Echelon Special tool-sets for servicing the 741 and 841.
Have any of you Indian guys seen it before?
Would anyone like to make an experienced, knowing theory on what fastener on a 741 & 841 it might have been used to turn?
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Re: Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
it's an Indian Base nut wrench...not found in the on board tool kit, but was necessary for motor pool operations
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Re: Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
Just to clarify, when I mean Indian base nut, I'm referring to the four nuts that hold each cylinder to the cases...these wrenches are very thin walled, the bend is imperative to ensure proper fit on the nuts so they dont get rounded off by improper fitting wrench angle.
If you come across another one, I'd be happy.to take it off your hands!!
Cheers!
Pete
If you come across another one, I'd be happy.to take it off your hands!!
Cheers!
Pete
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Re: Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
Thanks much, Pete! Fascinating. Please post photos of this area on the motorcycle, showing the nuts and why the S-curve is essential. I do not own an Indian 741 or 841, nor am I close to a museum that has one, and I would really like to see how this wrench improves access and fit to the nut instead of, for example, a straight handled dwarf DBE wrench with 15* angles or a straight handled dwarf DBE wrench with 45* offsets.
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Re: Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
Pete and Greg,
With regard to this "S" wrench... I think we might be a little off on this as to its purpose. I say this in light of the following:
In the 1942 SNL N-19 "Tool-Set, Special, Indian Motorcycle, Chain Drive", see this link: http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=280644
The above wrench (41-W-2068, IMC # 101374) is described as "WRENCH, "S" box end, 1/2" both ends". However, further down in that listing there is a wrench (41-W-872-30, IMC # 35-W-206) that is described as "WRENCH, cylinder base stud, special". Coincidentally, such a wrench was just sold on the auction site. See this link: https://m.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-INDIAN-M ... cvip-panel
and looks more like a common starter and manifold wrench. As I see it in the image in the listing, other than the bend in the shank of the wrench there are no angled offsets or bends (15 degree or 45 degree offsets) in the heads relative to the plane of the shank.
So, what do you guys make of this? Is the SNL wrong as to its listing and description of the wrenches relative to their actual use and purpose or are we confusing the wrenches and their purposes amongst ourselves. I include myself in this as I am a self described "buff" of the older Indians given that I own a newer one, follow all of the Indian threads here on the Gee and want to learn as much as I can about the military Indians.
Thank you,
Henry
With regard to this "S" wrench... I think we might be a little off on this as to its purpose. I say this in light of the following:
In the 1942 SNL N-19 "Tool-Set, Special, Indian Motorcycle, Chain Drive", see this link: http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=280644
The above wrench (41-W-2068, IMC # 101374) is described as "WRENCH, "S" box end, 1/2" both ends". However, further down in that listing there is a wrench (41-W-872-30, IMC # 35-W-206) that is described as "WRENCH, cylinder base stud, special". Coincidentally, such a wrench was just sold on the auction site. See this link: https://m.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-INDIAN-M ... cvip-panel
and looks more like a common starter and manifold wrench. As I see it in the image in the listing, other than the bend in the shank of the wrench there are no angled offsets or bends (15 degree or 45 degree offsets) in the heads relative to the plane of the shank.
So, what do you guys make of this? Is the SNL wrong as to its listing and description of the wrenches relative to their actual use and purpose or are we confusing the wrenches and their purposes amongst ourselves. I include myself in this as I am a self described "buff" of the older Indians given that I own a newer one, follow all of the Indian threads here on the Gee and want to learn as much as I can about the military Indians.
Thank you,
Henry
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Re: Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
Henry and Greg,
I'll be back in the Indian Shop on Sunday, and will also have a 741 and 841 handy for "field testing"
will advise beginning part of next week.
Cheers!
Pete
I'll be back in the Indian Shop on Sunday, and will also have a 741 and 841 handy for "field testing"
will advise beginning part of next week.
Cheers!
Pete
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Re: Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
Pete,
Thank you. I'm looking forward to your reply. I really find this stuff interesting. On another note... a 741 AND an 841!?!? You are one lucky guy!
Thank you,
Henry
Thank you. I'm looking forward to your reply. I really find this stuff interesting. On another note... a 741 AND an 841!?!? You are one lucky guy!
Thank you,
Henry
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Re: Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
Henry and Greg,
so after looking through some manuals and playing around in the shop on Sunday, here is what i conclude:
The "s-curve" wrench, is most assuredly a base nut wrench. The shape of the wrench is to more easily navigate around all the obstructions that surround the motor.( exhaust, distributor, valve covers, etc) the angle of the box ends is closly matched to the 42 degree angle of Indians motors.
the J style wrench pictured in the ebay auction does not appear in the military tool manuals...my educated guess that that its an earlier style base nut wrench. I'm think 1935 and earlier, before Indian adopted vertical distributors.
however the same part number is used to describe a base nut wrench that is different from the others that we have discussed. this particular wrench is listed as 340, 640, 841
i took a bunch of photos, hopefully i can up load them
cheers,
Pete
so after looking through some manuals and playing around in the shop on Sunday, here is what i conclude:
The "s-curve" wrench, is most assuredly a base nut wrench. The shape of the wrench is to more easily navigate around all the obstructions that surround the motor.( exhaust, distributor, valve covers, etc) the angle of the box ends is closly matched to the 42 degree angle of Indians motors.
the J style wrench pictured in the ebay auction does not appear in the military tool manuals...my educated guess that that its an earlier style base nut wrench. I'm think 1935 and earlier, before Indian adopted vertical distributors.
however the same part number is used to describe a base nut wrench that is different from the others that we have discussed. this particular wrench is listed as 340, 640, 841
i took a bunch of photos, hopefully i can up load them
cheers,
Pete
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Re: Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
Pete,
Thank you very much for your reply with photos. I can certainly see where the "S" shape and angled heads of the base nut wrench are needed. Interesting though that, in the manual, it is listed in the Third and Fourth echelon tools section where presumably (and as shown in the photo of the special open end wrench being used on the intake manifold nuts) there wouldn't be as many obstructions to getting to the base nuts because... the engine is striped down and removed from the frame.
Again, thank you very much for your reply and photos.
Thank you,
Henry
Thank you very much for your reply with photos. I can certainly see where the "S" shape and angled heads of the base nut wrench are needed. Interesting though that, in the manual, it is listed in the Third and Fourth echelon tools section where presumably (and as shown in the photo of the special open end wrench being used on the intake manifold nuts) there wouldn't be as many obstructions to getting to the base nuts because... the engine is striped down and removed from the frame.
Again, thank you very much for your reply and photos.
Thank you,
Henry
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Re: Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
Pete,
Thanks very much for all the follow-up!
Please cite the nomenclature (complete title and date, etc) for the manual(s) you showed page scans from in your posts above.
Also, it looks as if you have the same "S" wrench. Is it also marked with only the FSN and no mfgr's branding?
Greg
Thanks very much for all the follow-up!
Please cite the nomenclature (complete title and date, etc) for the manual(s) you showed page scans from in your posts above.
Also, it looks as if you have the same "S" wrench. Is it also marked with only the FSN and no mfgr's branding?
Greg
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Re: Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
Greg & Henry,
sorry for the delayed Reply.
the Manual that is cited is the following:
Special Motorcycle Tools for Indian Military Motorcycles- Models 340B-640B-741B(B stands for Battery Ignition vs. Mag)
February 9, 1942
The Manual is Produced by IMC and does not list a TM #
Cheers Boys!
Pete
sorry for the delayed Reply.
the Manual that is cited is the following:
Special Motorcycle Tools for Indian Military Motorcycles- Models 340B-640B-741B(B stands for Battery Ignition vs. Mag)
February 9, 1942
The Manual is Produced by IMC and does not list a TM #
Cheers Boys!
Pete
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Re: Indian 741 & 841 service wrench
Long ago on ebay, I bought a brown paper bag full of those S-shaped cylinder wrenches. The bag was marked Indian, and the wrenches were marked same as in first photos. Michael Breeding bought one from me and he reproduced them (and put the script Indian logo on them, which was incorrect, but he did it to distinguish them from originals). I think I have a few still around.
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