1943 MB (picture heavy)

Create a thread to track the progress of you MB/GPW restoration progress. Previously a General Discussion board.
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tamnalan
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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by tamnalan » Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:26 am

I have an MB not far from yours (201453) - be glad to help in any way I can.

Your Ross steering box should not have a zerk fitting or be filled with grease (mine came that way too). That was a common maintenance shortcut that doesn't work well. The grease doesn't properly reach the sector shaft bushings, and it also has a habit of migrating up into the column and overwhelming the horn contact located just above the steering box. A steering box rebuild is easy with the body tub off.

If you do rebuild your steering box and need parts, beware of dangerous sector shafts floating around. There's a sticky on that topic at the top of the tech forum, courtesy of Oilleaker.

Good luck with your jeep! Looks like you have a great start on it. It will soon all be worth it... :)
Alan W. Johnson
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MB, 201453, "Lt Bob"
MB, 1942, not stock
M-100, Sep 1951
MB-TD, Mar 2012
Ford 91C, 1939


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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by Beers » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:34 am

minkforce1 wrote:
Beers wrote:Great to hear on the plates, so many guys just have to estimate DoD. Like you said, it has a post war head, but what's the casting # on the block? and serial #?
serial on the block is 418787, is there a different serial besides the 220904 number?
MB 220904 would be the serial number of the jeep, but for Willys the serial number on the block didn't match from the factory, it would be a larger number, with the difference between the two getting greater the later in the war the jeep was produced as Willys pulled engines off the assembly line to be used in non-jeep applications like stand alone generators.

For your MB, the original engine serial # would probably be somewhere around MB 238XXX-242XXX, but others on the forum would have a better estimate. Does the block have 638632 cast in large numbers on the passenger side at the bottom right above the oil pan?
1943 MB 213301 DOD 2-22-43

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by minkforce1 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:56 am

tamnalan wrote:I have an MB not far from yours (201453) - be glad to help in any way I can.

Your Ross steering box should not have a zerk fitting or be filled with grease (mine came that way too). That was a common maintenance shortcut that doesn't work well. The grease doesn't properly reach the sector shaft bushings, and it also has a habit of migrating up into the column and overwhelming the horn contact located just above the steering box. A steering box rebuild is easy with the body tub off.

If you do rebuild your steering box and need parts, beware of dangerous sector shafts floating around. There's a sticky on that topic at the top of the tech forum, courtesy of Oilleaker.

Good luck with your jeep! Looks like you have a great start on it. It will soon all be worth it... :)
I'll definitely check that out. We have the tub pulled off to start prepping for paint, so I pulled off the steering column cover and it was pretty well packed full of grease.

UPDATED: yup, full of grease. Still stuck on the steering drag link and I had to run out. I'll try getting it off the body and degreasing it today or tomorrow, see what kind of shape it's in. The grease looks new, so they may have rebuilt it and then greased it because of the zerk fitting.
Beers wrote:
minkforce1 wrote:
Beers wrote:Great to hear on the plates, so many guys just have to estimate DoD. Like you said, it has a post war head, but what's the casting # on the block? and serial #?
serial on the block is 418787, is there a different serial besides the 220904 number?
MB 220904 would be the serial number of the jeep, but for Willys the serial number on the block didn't match from the factory, it would be a larger number, with the difference between the two getting greater the later in the war the jeep was produced as Willys pulled engines off the assembly line to be used in non-jeep applications like stand alone generators.

For your MB, the original engine serial # would probably be somewhere around MB 238XXX-242XXX, but others on the forum would have a better estimate. Does the block have 638632 cast in large numbers on the passenger side at the bottom right above the oil pan?
Yes, the engine block does have the 638632. Does that mean it's a buyback engine?

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by tamnalan » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:25 am

Here's two numbers off my motor:

Image

Image

That date stamp on the oil pan mounting surface helps to determine if the motor fits your jeep build date or not. The other date stamps I found on my MB (distributor and on both axle pinion gears) all fall in late Dec '42 too - I got lucky I guess. My block's number is 213147.
Alan W. Johnson
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MB, 201453, "Lt Bob"
MB, 1942, not stock
M-100, Sep 1951
MB-TD, Mar 2012
Ford 91C, 1939

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by GI. » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:32 pm

minkforce1,
in 1997 my s/g/b on my M151 was leaking like mad, a friend of mine, a retired motor pool Sgt. told me to pack it with grease, I did, that's been 20 years now and not a drop and steer's like new, I drive it a lot.
And it has yet to overwhelm my horn.
67 M-151A1

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by Beers » Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:05 pm

minkforce1 wrote:Yes, the engine block does have the 638632. Does that mean it's a buyback engine?
Not especially. Just means that somewhere in the last 74 years someone replaced the engine. Could have been the military, with a civilian owner replacing the head with a post war version years later, or a civilian replacement for everything. Without additional records, you never know. Very good to have a wartime Willys block though! :D
1943 MB 213301 DOD 2-22-43

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by minkforce1 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:08 pm

GI. wrote:minkforce1,
in 1997 my s/g/b on my M151 was leaking like mad, a friend of mine, a retired motor pool Sgt. told me to pack it with grease, I did, that's been 20 years now and not a drop and steer's like new, I drive it a lot.
And it has yet to overwhelm my horn.
I'm reading through all the threads and I can see this is one of those contentious subjects. I see pros and cons to both sides, I also see my steering column full of grease.

I pulled off the steering box, my drag arm is seized up on the steering arm which is seized up on the sector shaft. It was packed full of new grease and had a vague appearance of being rebuilt, though it looks like al the grease had migrated up to the horn contact. Inner column is still packed, though they thoughtfully left me a wire running through so I can pull my (too long) horn wire when it's time. Missing one or two little parts, and then we can decide what type of lube to use. The steering felt tight the two or three times we moved the jeep on its own wheels.

Not much more progress besides re-priming the body while the temperatures are up, covering up all the scuffs and scratches I made while fitting the body. Finally fit the crash pads and forward bow brackets. Going to hook up some fuel through more of the line and make sure theres good flow through while we can easily reach individual components. If I fit too many more parts, we'll just end up driving it without the body.
Beers wrote:
minkforce1 wrote:Yes, the engine block does have the 638632. Does that mean it's a buyback engine?
Not especially. Just means that somewhere in the last 74 years someone replaced the engine. Could have been the military, with a civilian owner replacing the head with a post war version years later, or a civilian replacement for everything. Without additional records, you never know. Very good to have a wartime Willys block though! :D
Good to know, I wish it wasn't slathered in JB weld under the distributor, but I'll take what I can get. I noticed when I had my garage heated and then cooled down the JB weld formed condensation on the outside, hopefully thats all the fluid we initially saw on it and not a serious crack leaking through.

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by minkforce1 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:49 pm

Had the guys over to start doing final checks on body work and fill up fluids to check for leaks. We have a couple pinholes leaks in the top radiator pipe, and slight seepage coming through the JB weld patch under the distributor. I think we can make it through this season without too much trouble if I slather on more JB weld, but we'll definitely do a full engine tear down in the near future to fix whatever crack we have in the water jacket. The radiator is frustrating, since I had it pressure tested right after I bought it and they assured me it was fine. Not sure what their threshold for 'fine' is, but it was enough of a leak that we were catching some spray as it hit the fan. It'll be a pain to scrape away the JB weld and paint on it, but at least its just a couple pinholes (or smaller).

The engine sounds like it's running decently, though the timing is a fraction off and the tappets need adjustment, thankfully its nothing my guy can't do in the garage in an afternoon. The steering box is going to be resealed and filled with oil per recommendation of my friend with his own Willys. If it decides to leak when it warms up, we'll revisit the subject then, I know there's a lot of good suggestions out there.

Last remaining parts are basically down to whatever I manage to break while installing it, and the M31C mount for my 1919a4. We may wait on the mount until we get closer to a big even just to make sure I don't blow the budget and run into a major problem the first time we road test it.

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by minkforce1 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:10 pm

Another couple busy days. Sealed the radiator pinhole leaks with steel stick, probably more than necessary but it looks clean now. Spent most of my time working on the sheared bolt from the engine block. We weren't able to back it out with a reverse thread extractor, so I carefully drilled out the whole bolt. We of course forgot to drain all the coolant (petcock definitely seized) which made this an interesting experience.
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Put some loctite on the freshly threaded hole after draining enough coolant to dry off the threads.

We re-attached the pedal assembly to the block and it seems to be working properly. Next step will be pressurizing the engine again and making sure the bolt is going to hold and that the pedal linkage is tuned properly, along with making sure the new thermostat is working. We reassembled the steering box and filled with gear oil, no leaks so far but it's also rather cold out.

We're also looking at the alternator. My closest comparable Jeep is just running straight from the bolt connection to the positive battery terminal without using the pigtail connection at all, hope this is the correct hookup for the 12v system.
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Down to a few of the last mystery parts, including this rather small spring.
Image

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by minkforce1 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:43 pm

Had a short break in weather so I started painting and prepping parts. It's amazing how dirty the jeep got just sitting in the garage, so I had to vacuum and dust the tub to clear off all the grit and grime.
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Also did a little machining to drill the 1" hole for the crank in the front bumper. My bumper isn't correct, but shipping demolishes any advantage of replacing it, so it stays for now.
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Last major problem we're working on is the crack on the engine block right under the distributor. We sanded it down and applied more JB weld, but the slow leak kept dribbling through. I should have fixed the petcock when we had partially drained the radiator, but now we're paying for it.
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We slapped some marine grade epoxy to seal up the JB weld. It's atrocious, but I just want to get it through one season before we tear it down and completely rebuild the engine on account of one tiny leak.

Rest of the updates are just busy work, borrowing an air compressor from an obliging neighbor, getting a moisture trap and HVLP gun, and hoping Wednesday will be warm enough to do one coat of paint

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by minkforce1 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:23 pm

Busy past few days since I last updated. Managed to break my neighbors air compressor mid-paint session, though thankfully we were able to fix it. Paint went on, parts were installed and painted again, wiring harness started, tested, botched, fixed and now presumably working.
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We also managed to crack a weld on the rear bumper, so off to the welder we went to have it redone.
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We're missing the bracket for the speedometer, so I picked up some steel stock to bend and drill a new one.
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An entire day was devoted to wiring up the grill, installing the air deflector, and bending oh so many tiny rivets with welting.
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Last few steps for now is double checking the wiring and switches, drilling and installing wire and fuel line clips, and figuring out what to do with the 'generator' wire now that there is no generator.

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by Robb » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:24 am

Your alternator is wired correctly so far. the white wire will go to the keyed ignition run switch (not the push button start switch) and they youll run another wire from that post on the back thru the ammeter and back over to the starter solenoid for your 12 volt starter. What you have is a 3 wire alternator. Likely a Delco 10si. Make sure its not too much bigger (as in amp output) then what your ammeter gauge is rated for.

I have found tractor diagrams a bit more handy than looking at CJ jeep wiring diagrams (for converting to 12 volt)
Image


This is a great resource to explain how it works
http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical ... orks.shtml


I read thru and you mention having the motor get you thru "one season" or perhaps you said session. What does that mean ? Reason I am asking is in relation to the leaking block.

Are you hoping you can patch it with JB weld and then drive it ? or is it not going to be driven, just "shown" ?

I totally get where youve gotten this far with all the work you have done, great pictures and it looks like you have overcome a lot of obstacles and surprises. Id be eager to get it running too. Ive been there with some cars in my past too.

That being said, you have spent a lot of time getting the parts painted and looking good. If that block isnt holding water/coolant at rest, you can bet that under heat and pressure (stress) its going to start spraying fluid all over the place and getting your engine compartment completely a mess after you just finished making it look so good. I would really be tempted to pull that block and get it fixed before doing much more and sure would be easier to do it now , then later.
'43 Willys MB (just got it Aug 7 2016)

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by minkforce1 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:01 am

Robb wrote:Your alternator is wired correctly so far. the white wire will go to the keyed ignition run switch (not the push button start switch) and they youll run another wire from that post on the back thru the ammeter and back over to the starter solenoid for your 12 volt starter. What you have is a 3 wire alternator. Likely a Delco 10si. Make sure its not too much bigger (as in amp output) then what your ammeter gauge is rated for.

I have found tractor diagrams a bit more handy than looking at CJ jeep wiring diagrams (for converting to 12 volt)
Image


This is a great resource to explain how it works
http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical ... orks.shtml


I read thru and you mention having the motor get you thru "one season" or perhaps you said session. What does that mean ? Reason I am asking is in relation to the leaking block.

Are you hoping you can patch it with JB weld and then drive it ? or is it not going to be driven, just "shown" ?

I totally get where youve gotten this far with all the work you have done, great pictures and it looks like you have overcome a lot of obstacles and surprises. Id be eager to get it running too. Ive been there with some cars in my past too.

That being said, you have spent a lot of time getting the parts painted and looking good. If that block isnt holding water/coolant at rest, you can bet that under heat and pressure (stress) its going to start spraying fluid all over the place and getting your engine compartment completely a mess after you just finished making it look so good. I would really be tempted to pull that block and get it fixed before doing much more and sure would be easier to do it now , then later.
thanks for the diagram and the link. We don't have a starter solenoid in, is that something we need to look in to because of the 12v conversion? Right now the wiring is pretty much dead on to this diagram, with the obvious exception of the generator wiring.
Image


We're slowly coming to that same conclusion on the engine. We should have pulled it to fix all the messed up things the PO's did to it before we bought it, but I was working mostly by myself back then and didn't know what to be looking for. Now that we're coming up on dream cruise season I'd hate to have to pull the engine this late, but thats my fault for not doing it at first. A lot easier to work on things now with the proper tools and not having to borrow from everyone else. We're somewhere between rebuilding or replacing the engine, completely dependent on how bad the crack is and if it can be welded at all. I'm keeping an eye out for replacements because I really do want to be able to drive it this summer, but I also don't want to make it worse.

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by Robb » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:31 pm

Depends on what starter is in there. It could be a 6 volt starter still, a lot of guys will just use that on a 12 volt system conversion with the caveat that you need to be careful not to crank too much on that starter, like more than 6 seconds worth, at a shot. It supposedly will spin the that 6volt starter pretty fast though :) Youd want to trace all that out. Between the 2 diagrams above you should be able to piece together whats going on , and what you need to do next though.

Have you tested the compression on the engine, or otherwise fired it up yet since you got it ?

Right now, it seems like you would need to dremel away all the existing marine epoxy and jb weld to expose the crack again and the area around it, really scuff up and maybe grind a slight V into the crack with the dremel, and then clean the daylights out of it so you dont get any contamination on the clean surface and give another go with the JB weld really pushing it into the crack and then letting it completely - completely cure before adding coolant back in. Maybe even add in a little bit of screen material with a top layer of JB on that, to give it a little strength like you would do with a concrete slab and rebar...

Then if it still leaks, you know youre kaput until you can get a welder ( a welder who knows cast iron) on it and after first determining just how far the block is damaged internally, maybe that crack is "only the surface" and there are internal cracks leaking between the water and oil passages. I dont know.

BUT I sure would be careful about making sure you had a cell phone with you anytime you get out for a drive in case the patch decided to give out on you.
'43 Willys MB (just got it Aug 7 2016)

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Re: 1943 MB (picture heavy)

Post by Robb » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:40 pm

A question for you,

What did you use to strip off all of the red "primer" that came on the Omix Ada / Willys Overland and other newer parts ? Just wire wheel it, or did you use some solvent ?

I have a couple small parts I need to do, figured youd have a system down pat for doing it.
'43 Willys MB (just got it Aug 7 2016)


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