Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Discussion of Local, State, and Federal issues regarding MV Legislation, MV use restrictions, MV registration refusals, etc. As these issues may ultimately affect other jurisdictions, information and education of all MV owners is crucial for the future ownership and use of our MVs.
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Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby Cat Man » Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:34 pm

Many of you know the fight we are in here in the State of Wisconsin to keep the DOT from banning MV's from the public roads.

Working with the Wisconsin Legistature and the DOT and attorneys and Military Vehicle Collectors, a bill proposal has been created that will create a seperate catagory for Historic Military Vehicles. The new catagory has restriction on use. No daily drivers or commercial use. A special license plate will be issued. Registration is a one time $30 per vehicle, non expiring.

The Bill is LRB-3284/4. It is being circulated to legislators this week and next for co sponsorship and support.

If you live in Wisconsin we need your help. Please contact your State Legislators and Senators and ask them to support LRB-3284/4.
The alternative will be no MV's driven on road in Wisconsin.

We have set up a blog and posted more documents, The Complete Bill text and FAQ's.The blog is at http://wihmvbill.blogspot.com

Check the blog for updates at Wisconsin Historic Military Vehicle Bill Update

Thanks

Cat Man / collector advocate
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby Kevin Lockwood » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:10 am

I have a question. Is MV defined? Are they including a MB/GPW as a MV which will mean you can't drive a 45MB to work but you can drive a 46 CJ2A. If so, I am not sure this would be a good statute.
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby Thomas Jacobson » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:56 am

Well, the way I read the draft that is posted on the http://wihmvbill.blogspot.com site, that seems to be correct, I can not use my 42MB to drive to work, but I could drive a 46 CJ2A.... (how long until they go after those?)

I have some sympathy with the DOT, as people who drive a MUTT with independent rear suspension at 60MPH are nuts... and I can recall how often I came close to flipping the MB I had as a kid.. even at 50MPH... and the lights..... well, to say the least, they are unsafe.

I hate what I call cook-book regulations... they are usually too simplistic. What if a person added clamp on modern tail lights and turn signals to a MB/GPW, and promised never to dive it faster than 40MPH... however, that is too complex and unenforceable. As with most law, I suppose the issue is, not that you don't have the right to kill yourself, but you don't have the right to do harm to others in the accident you might cause.

It would be nice to add a line in the bill that says if the substantially same vehicle was also produced and sold to the general public that it should be covered under the regular antique vehicle regulations... that might except our MB/GPWs, perhaps a few power wagons, and a few military sedans and pickups. Or, perhaps, a slightly expanded definition of what occasional use for exhibition/parade/event use means. It should allow a person to drive lighter HMVs to work or the park on a nice summer day allowing people to see it, remember its history, and admire the engineering, and for the owner to have the simple reward of the pleasure of driving it now and then. Language and a method to that effect that would keep people from abusing the privilege is possible I would think, if written by a good lawyer.

NB: Experience suggests that as soon as this bill is passed, there will be 49 other DMVs wanting to clone it... so it would be nice to get this archetype right... as it is sure to propagate to cover every one else within a few years.

T.
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby Kevin Lockwood » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:51 pm

We fought this in Kansas and fortunately our legislators saw fit to allow the older vehicles to simply fall in along with all other antique motor vehicles. There is NO WAY a 36 Chevrolet Coupe is "safer" than a CCKW, M35, M715, M38, etc etc. Quite frankly a 72 Cadillac De Ville would fall in to a similar category. I am obviously not privy to the Wisconsin details. So I respect that those fellows are fighting hard. I am very concerned that a state DOT which is un-elected can wake up and become KING. Our Kansas legislators took away the DOT's right to issue policy by passing a statute forcing them to tag ALL (except those fully tracked) as any other motor vehicle. I hope that the folks in Wisconsin can come back in the next session and get a much better statute drafted.
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby undysworld » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:49 pm

With no disrespect to those of you who have been involved in this proposal, it's only fair to mention that a previous proposal is currently being circulated. Sen. Jon Erpenbach and 14 other Senators are co-authoring a proposed bill which would allow historic military vehicles to be registered in Wisconsin, and used for other purposes than JUST parades! Sen. Erpenbach is dissatisfied with the way WisDOT is acting, and believes that ALL HMVs are threatened. Here is what they wrote:

TO: All Legislators

FROM: Sen. Jon Erpenbach and Rep. Sondy Pope-Roberts


DATE: October 21, 2009

RE: Co-Sponsorship of LRB 3562/1 - Registration of former military vehicles



We are introducing LRB 3562/1 which will allow former military vehicles to be registered as a type of special interest vehicle.

The need for this bill has come to our attention through our constituent, Paul Underwood of Mount Horeb. Mr. Underwood owns a Pinzgauer, which was licensed by DOT for a number of years. Two years ago DOT refused to re-license his vehicle. Mr. Underwood took his case before an administrative law judge, and won. However, DOT is back to not licensing Pinzgauers as people apply for registration and licensing. It has become clear to us that DOT intends to proceed with it’s plan of outlawing Pinzgauers as a first step of proceeding to remove from the road all historic military vehicles. On behalf of our constituent, we are instigating this legislation to protect his investment and right to use his vehicle. There will be many individuals around the state who will loose the ability to drive their vehicles if DOT plans to take away the ability to license historic military vehicles moves forward.

The bill allows former military vehicles to be registered as a type of special interest vehicle. A former military vehicle is defined as a vehicle that is at least 25 years old, was manufactured for use in any country’s military forces, and is maintained to accurately represent its military design and markings, regardless of the vehicle’s size and weight. A former military vehicle may be registered as a special interest vehicle even if it is originally designed and manufactured for off-highway operation and does not meet certain federal motor vehicle safety standards. Former military vehicles registered as collector vehicles are not subject to the 500 pound weight limitation for hauling material.

Please reply to this email if you are interested in co-sponsoring the measure, or call our offices. Sen. Erpenbach 608-266-6670 or Rep. Pope-Roberts 608-266-3520.

The draft is attached for your consideration

This is me again. That's the short version. Currently, I don't have a way of adding the text of the bill. I will have it loaded on a page on our Wisconsin-Pinzgauers website and post a link so you can read it ASAP. Please be aware that there IS AN ALTERNATIVE to the proposal Jeff is recommending. For an early copy, email me and I'll forward my copy. Reply through this site or at undy@mhtc.net

After you read it, if you think this is a good idea, contact your representatives and urge them to support it.
Paul Underwood
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Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby TopKick » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:13 pm

I don't like the 25 year old requirement, as many folks own HUMMVV's and other newer military vehicles. However, they are on the right track. Who in the WidDOT has the burr under their saddle? This sounds more like a vendetta than an agenda.
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby undysworld » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:16 am

Topkick,

I'll get the proposal posted as quickly as I can. Sorry for the confusion.

Erpenbach's proposal reads thusly: Any person who is the owner of a special interest vehicle that is a former military vehicle, or that is not a former military vehicle and is 20 or more years old at the time of making application for registration or transfer of title of the vehicle... ...may upon application register the vehicle as a special interest vehicle upon payment of a fee under par. (b). A former military vehicle may be registered under this paragraph notwithstanding s.341.10(6).

Under Erpenbach's proposed bill, only Non-Ex-Military vehicles have to be 20 or more years old to register. A former military vehicle does not have to be of a particular age to be registered (at least as far as I can read.)

For my money, this is a far superior proposal than that put forth and supported by Mr. Rowsam and Rep. Zigmunt.

I agree that this feels more like revenge than any attempt to address an actual safety concern. IMHO, someone at WisDOT simply doesn't like our green trucks, and despite DOT's assurances to the contrary, it does feel like a personal vendetta. Who knows??

Paul U
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby Kevin Lockwood » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:48 am

Paul, I am pleased to hear there is another bill. Topkick and myself both made several trips to our capital to meet with the powers that be. In our situation we were able to build a core group of reps and senators that pushed the statute through forcing the DOT to end their policy of anti MV rules. I certainly hope that the BOD of the MVPA are giving you all of the support you need. If I can be of any help let me know.
Kevin Lockwood
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby undysworld » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:54 am

Hello Kevin,

I'd welcome any help at all. I've had no help from BOD or MVPA. I even chose not to renew my membership in MVPA because of this. :( It just doesn't seem to be on anyone's radar. I'm tired of coming off like a crazy car fanatic. In truth, I'm just fed up with WisDOT trying to force their agenda on everyone. To this end, I'll do whatever I can to get this issue resolved. I'd sure appreciate any help.

I can forward an email copy of Sen. Erpenbach's proposal, if anyone can get it posted somehow or linked in. I haven't been able to get this done yet. (I don't know how.) I really want everyone to be able to read what's being proposed. To me, it seems like it addresses 99% of our concerns. It allows you to take your HMV to parades and car shows. But it ALSO allows you to drive it to the grocery store, Menards, your kid's football game, etc., just like your current license allows. It even waives the collector car payload restriction, so you can actually use the vehicle.

On a side note, Rep. Zigmunt's proposal suggests to register HMVs for a $5 fee. That's nice, but do you really think that the rest of the collector car enthusiasts will suppport this? (They all get nicked for about $200 for their plates.) They're sure to have a well deserved problem with this. Sen. Erpenbach proposes that HMVs pay the same registration fee as the rest of the collector vehicle owners. To me, that seems fair.
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby Tom Wolboldt » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:12 am

Hello Paul,

Had you contacted the MVPA in your latest efforts ? The MVPA has been working through Jeff Rowsam since mid summer of this year on these matters. Myself, on the surface, I believe the bill you are working on is better for the HMV owner but the State Politicians have to look at what is best for all the citizens and keep the Feds happy at the same time.
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby Thomas Jacobson » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:40 am

Briefly:

1) I agree with the WisDOT that many/most off road military vehicles of any origin or era are unsafe in modern highway and traffic conditions, and pose a threat to the safety of others. I don't agree that they are on some sort of vendetta, or that there is some sort of conspiracy. We have no right to put the lives of others in danger.
Solution: Adopt/enforce appropriate and existing basic standards for roadworthy-ness, in terms of suspension, stop and turn lights, bumper function, etc. (This does not mean you must have a roll bar or other safety equipment for the protection of the operator, as your are free to harm yourself, but not others.). It does mean that if you want to drive an M35, a Gama-Goat, a Pinz, or a HMMWV or other heavy military truck on the highway for daily commercial or personal use, you have to modify the lights, bumpers, and suspension to meet appropriate safety standards. DOT should establish a reasonable means to inspect and certify that any vehicle meets “basic” safety standards, such as a simple check list that could be done by any officer of the law. (Same guy who should give you a ticket for an unsafe vehicle on the road).

2) Collectors of HMVs should be allowed to keep them in original configuration of lights etc. and show them at parades etc. and take them for a Sunday drive in the park, but not use them as daily drivers. (load and mileage limits). (They can do temporary modifications, such as clamp on tail lights and turn signals for an MB/GPW etc. if they want to keep them original but and license and use them regular daily drivers if they want).
Solution: License them under existing collector car rules. Also, modify all collector car rules to prevent using any collector car as daily driver, as seems to be allowed/overlooked now. (i.e. it is unfair to prevent HMV owners from keeping them in original configuration, but allow some guy with a 1930's vehicle or a CJ2A with one dim stop light and no turn signals to use it on a daily basis...)

T.
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby Kevin Lockwood » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:12 pm

Reply to Tom and Thomas
First Tom: Can the MVPA help this Paul/Erpanbach bill out???? I know the national can only do so much. It sure looks like the Rowsam bill is almost complete capitulation. If we are supporting one over the other I think we have got the wrong horse. If the Chairman of the Trans. Committee is signed on with Erpanbach then the MVPA needs to bottle feed this co-sponsorship. The Senate Chair is a purse string for the DOT and DMV. If this man is in our camp he can make the DOT/DMV take notice.

Second Thomas: I think you are confusing off-road with versatile. I would agree that off-road vehicles are not typically well suited to the highway (low-gearing, no lights, open driver,etc.) BUT the MVs we are talking about ARE highway vehicles. The MVPA just put on a great Convoy across America on the Lincoln HIGHWAY. These MVs we are discussing were designed for the highway. They have highway rated tires, lights as could or better than the contemporary civilian vehicles of their time. They travel at or above minimum posted speed limits.
Condemning them without facts is a poor tactic. The Kansas Highway Patrol was called to present evidence opposing our statute in Kansas and could find NO data that supported the statement that a M37 is less safe than a 1968 Camaro. In fact the opposite is more easily proven. Fatalities in 67-70 Camaros far exceed M37 fatalities.
I just think this is a fight we can win (we did in Kansas) Don't shoot yourselves in the foot by making Kissy face with these Uninformed policy makers. Where are the Wisconsin fatalities as a result of over seventy years of MV (private or gov't) operation on the states highway. I would bet these totals are statistically negligible.
Stick together and DO NOT accept their rhetoric. Make them back up their claims with FACTS. You guys can make them eat crow if you battle them with patriotism, history, and FACTS.
Kevin Lockwood
42 Ford GPW
42 Oshkosh AAF Snowblower
41 White M2 halftrack
42 Autocar M2A1 was M2 halftrack
42 Autocar M3-75 halftrack
42 White M4A1 was M4 halftrack
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby Dave K. » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:45 pm

Thanks for posting the text of the Erpenbach Bill--I've been trying to get this for some time from the local club in Milwaukee but with no success--it wasn't even offered as an alternative to us other than in a footnote stating that Zigmunt is better than Erp's. It does read better and is far more forgiving than the Zigmunt Bill which is broadly restrictive in my opinion. The key is will if fly! If it won't then it's a waste to pursue in my opinion.

I will support the Erpenbach Bill as I believe the Zig bill castrates us as collectors--I don't want a lawn ornament 360 days out of the year. Neither is really very good which will ultimately drive people towards more creative titling of vehicles in the end . . . . or getting out of this hobby . . . .

As for the opinions about safety--how many accidents were there in Wisconsin in 2008 involving classic vehicles and mil vehicles? How many dead? How many injured? To say that they are patently unsafe and pose a hazard is kinda silly in my opinion. Show me the data and I will believe it. I do think however that we don't need certain vehicles on the road--like tanks. They scare the crap out of many drivers and were never roadworthy when they were in service anyway--of course neither were the Gammas, just talk to the NG folks who drove them. We can't have everything folks and we need to remember that--the majority should rule here and the bill should follow that line--US made 1/4 thru, say 5T vehicles should be the concentration in any bill and it likely would be more easily accepted. If the bill drives the DOT towards having to accept the roadworthiness of foreign vehicles then the bill will likely tank. Sorry, but that's the reality based on what one friend in the WI-DOT said.
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Re: Help Us Prevent a ban on MVs in Wisconsin

Postby undysworld » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:50 am

Some good comments. First off, here's the link to Sen. Erpenbach's bill: http://www.wisconsin-pinzgauers.org/sit ... -35621.pdf

Tom, I think that your comments regarding HMVs being inherently unsafe is half-right. To be sure, when the vehicles were built, they were built to accomplish their jobs first, provide safety secondly. But that's not to say they aren't safe. If the occupants didn't get where they were going, the job didn't get done. Let's be honest, a 1970 model vehicle was equipped with less safety features than one from 2009. But that alone does not make it "too unsafe" to be able to drive it.

In the case of my Austrian built Steyr-Puch Pinzguaer, the evidence at the appeal hearing showed that it had blinkers, wipers, brakes, seat belts, etc. The judge ruled that the DOT had not shown that I lacked any equipment. Morever, Federal documents specify that my truck was legal to import as a Motor Vehicle - designed for on-road operation.

Has DOT shown any active cause for concern, such as accidents, injuries, or deaths associated with HMVs. To my knowledge, NONE.

Should HMVs be legal to operate commercially without some safety upgrades? No. But for your average private HMV owner, using the vehicle for commercial purposes just isn't done. Nobody is suggesting that.

DOT should absolutely inspect a vehicle model prior to approving it for registration. But once that's done, why inspect every vehicle of that same model? An inspection of EACH vehicle is not neccessary. DOT already has the means of inspecting vehicles, as specified in Wis. Admin. Code Ch. Trans341.

Wisconsin already has rules which specify the equipment required for legal operation on Wisconsin roads. It's found in Wis. Admin Code Ch. Trans305. So it's already illegal to operate on Wisconsin roads without certain minimum levels of equipment. Yes, tickets for non-compliance should be enforced.

That's why I say that Sen. Erpenbach's bill is a sound one. As Tom suggests, it would allow HMVs to be registered under the existing collector car rules. Current law already prohibits a collector car from being a daily driver - in order to get a collector car plate, you already have to have a vehicle licensed with regular (auto or truck) plates. These rules should be enforced, if people are truly breaking them.
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1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

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