Wisconsin banning military vehicles?

[Mitch Olson]

Maybe Chet Krause could chim in on this since he has such a fine collection of jeeps and lives in Wisconsin and attended the recent Iola meet.

Mitch

[Doug Mc]

I just got off the phone with the owner and it turns out that this is WI DMV "policy" rather than the "law". The supervisor asked him if he thought she should revoke the titles of all his friends who own MVs. He told her that he wasn't telling her what to do, he justs wants a title for his jeep. She got very defensive and I imagine that she is a true tree hugger/peacenik type from what he said.

This is something that I think a little newspaper and television news stories could put a stop to very quickly.

You guys in Wisconsin need to start calling in favors from the "media".

Doug Mc

[jagjetta]

Everyone stay calm!

I just had a look at the documents, and from what I can see is this:

The jeep was sold to the present owner without a title. He went to Wisconsin DMV and tried to do two things (mistake number 1!):

1. Title the vehicle (mistake number 2...doesn't matter if it is OD or polychrome yellow, if you try to get a title for a vehicle in Wisconsin for one that has none, you are going to run into trouble).
2. License the vehicle (would have been no problem to license as a collector vehicle IF he had the title).

Solutions:
1. Do like everyone else, send your money to Broadway Title and get a title.
2. TRANSFER the title to Wisconsin.
3. License as a collector vehicle.
4. Try to resist the ufge to stir up the "Us vs. Them" pot when it comes to MVs. When you contact the MVPA and alert the troops, be sure you tell the FULL story and not just an over reaction to something that could be solved with a little investigaton.

How others can avoid this problem:
1. GET A TITLE when you buy a vehicle. If the seller doesn't have one, make it THEIR problem.
2. Don't try to show off how much you know about military vehicles when you go to your DMV. Be a bit obtuse, but not dishonest. Jeeps are "quarter ton trucks" WCs and M37s are "1/2-ton or 3/4-ton trucks". Save the bravado for parades and buddies.
3. STAY CALM. When you cry wolf to the MVPA, the legislators or the poor, overworked magazine editors, it makes it hard to sort out what is worth concentrated and focused reaction. The government isn't going to come tomorrow for your trucks. You have time to formulate, thoughtful and tactful responses. Use the time wisely.

This is not a problem with Wisconsin "Banning military vehicles" as stated on the front of this thread, but comes down to, why was no title provided to the buyer. Mr. McArthur, you stated "You guys in Wisconsin need to start calling in favors from the "media".' Just what do you propose that we tell them?

John A-G
WISCONSIN

[Doug Mc]

This is not a problem with Wisconsin "Banning military vehicles" as stated on the front of this thread, but comes down to, why was no title provided to the buyer. Mr. McArthur, you stated "You guys in Wisconsin need to start calling in favors from the "media".' Just what do you propose that we tell them?

John A-G
WISCONSIN

Simple answer... there was no title. This jeep came out of a barn in Georgia and had never been titled. On top of that, Georgia doesn't issue titles on vehicles more than 20 years old. No way to get one. How many jeeps do you suppose are sold every year with no titles? Answer: many. I rebuilt the jeep and sold it the same way I bought it, with a bill of sale.

A little digging into this has revealed that there is no WI state law against titling a former military vehicle. Just a "policy" set by the director of the WI DMV. What happens when this person decides he/she/it doesn't like '65 Mustangs? Will he/she/it just make that "policy"?

I would propose that you tell the media exactly what happened. Then, when the second newspaper article or the first television spot on the evening news hits, there will be a sudden abrupt change of "policy".

Doug Mc

[Ernie Baals]

Hi All
The title thing can get quite tricky, depending on what state you are from.
New Jersey, for example does not accept bill of sales, the are wrothless in NJ.
The only thing NJ will accept is a title, or if it is a non title state, a current registration, from that state.
just as a side note, New Jersey as well as about 10 other states, do not accept paper work from Broadway title.

Also in Pennsylvania, it is illegal to sell a vehicle without a title.

I really hate all the ads for running vehicles being sold with a bill of sale only. The sellers should at least register them to make it easier for the buyer.

Ernie

[Chuck Lutz]

Boy that one sure got some people's underwear in a bunch!

So if you have a bill of sale and no registration in WI (or other states) and you want to register your new purchase you will get a rude awakening it seems. I wonder if the poor guy who had the problem in the first place did ANY kind of research on registration of titled and non-titled vehicles in his state BEFORE going to the DMV?

1) He lives in WI, he bought the vehicle in GA.
2) He has a bill of sale, but the vehicle apparently had never been titled.

Hmmm....a phone call to the DMV, perhaps 20 minutes on the internet, maybe, just maybe asking here on the g503 how one would go about registering a jeep with the above issues would have gotten some answers as simple as the few posts above.

A lawyer never asks a witness a question he does not already know the answer to. When I registered my jeep (had a CA title) and my Bantam Trailer (never had a title, just a bill of sale), I had done enough homework to know what I needed, which forms, whose signature, what inspections, and what it was supposed to cost me BEFORE I went to DMV on both occasions. Naturally both experiences were smooth, friendly and exactly what I expected.

I can't begin to thank the guys who offered their experiences and tips on the process so it DID go like that. Otherwise I would have spent two or three more trips to DMV for each of those I sorted out in a half hour.

If you have to use a Title company like Broadway or even if you have to go to Uncle Bob's house across the state line to register it a more friendly DMV atmosphere, you can always then walk in and apply for the local registration as if you just moved in from another state.

I wonder how many guys wasted hours on contacting legislators in WI today? Thanks to John Adams-Graf for taking the time from the magazine to actually do some research and post something to calm down everyone.

[Ernie Baals]

I agree 100% Chuck
The buyers and possibly the sellers should do a little research before jumping in to a big dollar purchase.

And, as has been stated, you can't forget that even if everything is in order, of you get that dmv worker with a chip on his/her shoulder. smile , walk away and go to another dmv, or come back another day.
Ernie

[salt6]

Maybe we could write this up and put it in the G503 Wiki?

[Tom Wolboldt]

Hello Group,

I am all for the States BMVs being fair but I fail to see why a Seller in Texas should think that the Wisconsin BMV should be pressured to change their policy of " No Bill of Sale transfers " by the Wisconsin lawmakers and the media just to fix his screwup of selling a vehicle to someone without a title in a title-only State. The Buyer of this vehicle is also not without fault in this deal and should have checked on the Wisconsin title laws before doing the deal.

We should be able to figure out a few things on our own without needing the Government to take care of us in everything we do.

[raymond]

While I'm no lawyer, or constitutional scholar, I thought the "Full faith and credit" clause of the U.S. Constitution has been interpreted by the U.S. Supreme Court in such a manner as to mean that contracts and licenses from one state were to be generally recognized in all the other states.

Raymond

[Jim M]

That reply is another reason why I voted for Tom on my MVPA ballot!

[Bill Eldred]

I see it this way. Why would a dealer in restored jeeps sell a jeep without a title? Doug Mc is obviously a dealer in restored jeeps, Why did he even think about selling a restored vehicle without getting a title. He could have easily gone to Broadway Tilte and obtianed one. Why didn't you? Was it the extra cost involved in doing so. I would suggest that in the future if you deal in restored jeeps or vehicles for that matter get a title make it part of the cost. Even in a bill of sale state you should supply the customer a title. If I was the buyer of the above vehicle I might be talking to you about getting one or to the Attorney General of your state. You did not sell a parts jeep you sold a restored running vehicle without a title.

[Doug Mc]

There is a lot of smoke being blown here but the fact remains, this is a military jeep and the buyer was told "you can't register it or get a WI title for it no matter what kind of paperwork you have"!

Instead of hijacking this thread with a bunch of advice that doesn't pertain to this issue, how about addressing the original issue: this jeep buyer was told "YOU CAN'T REGISTER IT BECAUSE IT'S A FORMER MILITARY VEHICLE."

What about the next guy who buys a deuce-and-a-half from a government auction? Or someone who buys a WI titled GPW from someone else in WI and then is told he can't register it because the state DMV is voiding those titles?

There is a problem in Wisconsin that needs to be addressed. It needs to be addressed by the folks in Wisconsin before they get bit in the butt by this "policy" as this buyer did.

Doug Mc

[Tom Wolboldt]

Hello Doug Mc,

As Judge Judy says all the time " everything you have posted is hearsay/second hand "

Who is this Wisconsin jeep buyer?
What is his contact information? ( I asked for this 2 days ago. )
What is the name of the DMV cleck?
Where is the DMV branch office located that was used by the jeep buyer?

With this data the true facts can be found and verified.

[jagjetta]

Doug,
I don't think anyone has tried to hijack the thread, but rather, have attempted to find out what is actually happening.

You may be confusing terms...in Wisconsin, to "register" a vehicle means, "obtain a title". Once the title is in hand, you then "license" the vehicle.

The document sent to your customer from the Wisc. DOT dated August 18, 2007, reads

"We regret to inform you that your 1943 Willys Jeep is not eligible for REGISTRATION or TITLING IN WISCONSIN [caps added]. Vehicles with this year and make were manufactured as strictly military vehicles and are not considered eligible for highway use in Wisconsin..."

The document is signed by the "Bureau of Vehicle Services--Research and Information Unit" and the attachment to it was a printout of guidelines for Gray Market Vehicles, dated Dec. 03, 2004.

The Wisc. DOT has no problem with a retitling a vehicle that has a title. It is simply done as a collector vehicle.

If you had provided your customer with a title (why anyone would buy a vehicle they plan to drive that doesn't have a title is beyond my comprehension), he would have had no problem.

I strongly suggest you don't go "poking the bear" to simply cover the fact that the guy tried to title a vehicle when it is pretty well known that you can't obtain a title for a gray-market vehicle in Wisconsin. When you start a campaign to "correct the problems at the DMV" it certainly stirs the possibility of drawing attention to the entire hobby.

If this was a HOBBY problem, I would be the first to visit by legislator buddies. However, this does not seem to be a HOBBY problem as much as it is a Dealer-customer problem.

You might want to offer to obtain a title (through a retitling service) for your customer. He should have no problem getting tags for it then.

John A-G
WISCONSIN