Hummer titling

Discussion of Local, State, and Federal issues regarding MV Legislation, MV use restrictions, MV registration refusals, etc. As these issues may ultimately affect other jurisdictions, information and education of all MV owners is crucial for the future ownership and use of our MVs.
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Thomas Romine
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Re: Hummer titling

Post by Thomas Romine » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:34 am

This is the whole class of vehicle. If a vehicle has been titled for years and the owner has documentation to prove it you may be able to keep your road title. Otherwise the State of Michigan will only issue an ORV title.

Tom

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Re: Hummer titling

Post by gohunter2@aol.com » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:15 am

I'm new to this site and just trying to find information regrading titling Humvee's in Michigan , is this a dead issue or are people trying to run this thru some type of legislative assistants.

Thomas Romine
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Re: Hummer titling

Post by Thomas Romine » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:26 am

At this point it dead as we have been unable to find an elected official that is willing to help.

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Re: Hummer titling

Post by undysworld » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:06 am

Tom,

I suspect that the group of Michigan Humvee owners is so small that no legislator is taking your problem seriously. This was true here back in '08 when DMV cancelled titles for a couple dozen Pinzgauers. The key to legislative success is broad support.

I suggest that you look to the collector car community for support. Don't segregate yourself just because you like olive drab, because it doesn't really matter whether your favorite car is a '32 Ford Hi-boy, a chopped Mercury, a '67 Chevelle, or a Humvee, you are all "CAR GUYS". If your Humvee is illegal because it lacks a FMVSS Certification Label, then so are their cars. Your fight is their fight too, at least indirectly, and you guys all need to stick together to fight this.

We met with hundreds of groups and individuals and assembled an email notification system, so when we wrote and asked our group to phone the capital in support of our bills, the legislators got barraged. That way, when we actually visited the legislators offices, they had recently heard of us from several people. We once attended a Senate hearing with over 1000 signatures "in favor" of our bill. It's a lot of work, but it can be done.

Consider this: Your former military vehicle was used (at least in part) to fight for your rights. Maybe it's time for collectors in Michigan to fight to retain your vehicle rights. I wish you all the best.
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Hummer titling

Post by gohunter2@aol.com » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:53 am

This is very unfortunate that the home of auto and Humvee will not permit civilians to drive these vehicle but yet police officer and all government personal have free range of the roads, I see them everywhere . Undysworld I agree 100% with you, Michigan Humvee owners are either to small for legislator help to compete against big companies or we just haven't united yet . There's always a way around the red tape but I would rather do everything the correct way but you can always title out state.


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Re: Hummer titling

Post by undysworld » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:10 am

gohunter2@aol.com wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:53 am
This is very unfortunate that the home of auto and Humvee will not permit civilians to drive these vehicle but yet police officer and all government personal have free range of the roads, I see them everywhere .
Yup, and those govt. employees are not required to have any special training to drive 'em either. Not only that, anybody with a valid out-of-state plate can drive their Humvee in Michigan, legally, due to reciprocity laws.
gohunter2@aol.com wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:53 am
There's always a way around the red tape but I would rather do everything the correct way but you can always title out state.
Some states (like Wisconsin, for instance) allow you to license your vehicle in another state, BUT, as soon as you operate that vehicle in Wisconsin it is immediately subject to Wisconsin registration requirements - meaning you get a ticket for non-registration. It all depends on your state's laws.

This should be seen as a threat by all car collectors in Michigan. :o What's that poem?... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
First they came for the Humvees and I did not speak out, Because I did not own a Humvee....
(My apologies to the author)
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Hummer titling

Post by gohunter2@aol.com » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:51 am

This is very unfortunate that the home of auto and Humvee will not permit civilians to drive these vehicle but yet police officer and all government personal have free range of the roads, I see them everywhere . Undysworld I agree 100% with you, Michigan Humvee owners are either to small for legislator help and compete against big companies or we just haven't united yet . There's always a way around the red tape and would rather do everything the correct way but they may force us to title out of state.

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Re: Hummer titling

Post by John Neuenburg » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:37 am

Historic Vehicle Association claims 375,000 members. Anybody talking to them? MVPA was an early "Partner." Hagerty Insurance was their Founding Partner and one would think they would be motivated to help. Any vendor, really. Follow the money.
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undysworld
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Re: Hummer titling

Post by undysworld » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:49 pm

In general, I sort of agree with the "follow the money" philosophy, but I don't think it's on our side in this case. GM's got a big stake in Michigan, and there's a lot of money involved in new cars with their safety requirements and autonomous abilities, so they can afford to lobby for laws. But owners, aftermarket manufacturers, restorers, etc. won't chip in to fight this in each individual state. There's just not that kind of money available, imho.

While HVA and MVPA are undoubtedly sympathetic to the issue, the VAST majority of their members do not live, and vote, in Michigan. So no matter how much they support this, nobody in the Michigan legislature much gives a squat, and the same goes for SEMA. I doubt that any knight on a white horse is going to come. This will have to happen within the state of Michigan.

I suspect it will take a group. The owners of military vehicles in Michigan are but a tiny minority of the state's political pie. Even including every "collector" vehicle owners in the state, you've still probably only got a few percent of the population. Unless your DMV is on your side (read: if your DMV is against you), then you're going to need political clout, and you only get that with in-state voters. They don't have to be "collector" or military vehicle owners, the just need to be Michigan voters.

That's not to say that HVA, MVPA and SEMA can't help at all. They might help you publicize the issue, call 'em and discuss the problem. Also, SEMA has a list, by state, of legislators that are "car-friendly": http://www.semasan.com/page.asp?content=state&g=semaga. Their site also offers helpful tips for approaching and lobbying your legislators. (I'd approach one (or all) of these car-friendly legislators, ideally with one of their own constituents, to discuss what can be done. Stress that you're NOT trying to get "illegal" vehicles on the road, and that you fully support requiring that the vehicles meet Michigan state equipment requirements.)
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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John Neuenburg
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Re: Hummer titling

Post by John Neuenburg » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:45 pm

Updating equipment? That won't work for the older vehicles!

Probably our power comes from military history and honoring veterans. Much of the population gets warm and fuzzy over that, including many bureaucrats, and politicians know that. Parades, airshow displays, VFW, DAV, Wounded Warriors events? Sounds like it's a public relations exercise.
Last edited by John Neuenburg on Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hummer titling

Post by undysworld » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:31 pm

John Neuenburg wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:45 pm
Updating equipment? That won't work for the older vehicles!
Huh?? Whoa. That's not what I wrote, and not at all what I'm recommending.

States each have their own laws, and (many, most, probably all?) require certain equipment on vehicles operating on their roads. For instance: FMVSS requires stop lamps. But just because your vehicle older than 25 years is exempt from FMVSS, it's likely still illegal to operate without stop lamps in your state.

In my opinion, so long as a vehicle has the equipment it was designed and manufactured with, and that vehicle is in good repair, it deserves to be registered for on-road operation.

I believe Michigan is giving these guys grief out of a (mistaken) belief that former military vehicles are less safe than civilian vehicles. I'm suggesting that you make sure legislators understand that your vehicles do meet the existing state requirements (with the possible exception of needing a license plate lamp), and you're not attempting to license illegal stuff. But by all means, do as you please.

From our experience here in Wisconsin, the warm fuzzy emotions about Memorial Day are not enough, especially if your DMV is pushing back. But I certainly wish you guys the best. Cheers.
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Hummer titling

Post by Lazboytt » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:08 pm

Hello,
Just wondering if there is any new development with the issue in Michigan? I tried to transfer my title from Wisconsin and was told that it could only be registered as off road use only by the SOS and that the WI registration was in error.

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Re: Hummer titling

Post by undysworld » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:42 am

Lazboytt,

To my knowledge, the folks in Michigan are not pursuing this issue. (I may well be wrong, and if so, please correct me here.)

If the truck had a clear title (not marked "off road only"), you should be good. If needed, I have some contacts in WisDOT and may be able to make inquiries here. I highly doubt that they made a "mistake" over this.

I suspect that someone will have to fight this in Michigan. I am able and willing to provide you with a copy of the successful appeal we fought over a Blazer, which acknowledges that the govt. MIL-STD 1180B document (download link: http://everyspec.com/MIL-STD/MIL-STD-11 ... 80B_22183/ ) proves that military vehicles are required to meet identical equipment standards as FMVSS. There is a direct correlation.

If you are willing to fight for this, please pm me with your direct email address, and I'll forward the copy of the Wis. Dept. of Admin. Div. of Hearings and Appeals case. [Case # TR-11-0016] (For whatever reason, this case is no longer available on-line!?!?!?!)

I can't fight this myself, from out of state. But I'll help you do it. FYI, Illinois has just cancelled a title on a Humvee. Somebody's got to stand up.

Regards,
Paul
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Hummer titling

Post by DaninNM » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:18 am

MY 2 CENTS WORTH:
It is odd that we are hearing only about Michigan w/r/t HMMWVs .... but it is happening elsewhere. I know of a long time owner that is having titles cancelled in Illinois (he has four of them - state is advising they are cancelling his titles). I know that New Mexico will not longer title HMMWVs either. they were titling them as ordinary vehicles with a VIN inspection and giving regular titles for on-highway use. Now they will not title them at all for on-highway use.
THIS HAS ALL THE SIGNS OF A NATIONWIDE EFFORT BY MOTOR VEHICLE REGISTRARS TO GO AFTER HMMWVs - I do not know the reason but you cannot believe that the various state vehicle registrars don't hold a national (read junket) meeting somewhere and a "position paper" was presents or adopted or read in a seminar that is leading to now - four different states all "UNREGISTERING" these vehicles at the same time.
This unregistration effort is the SMOKE.....we need to find the FIRE and PUT IT OUT.
This is not just a Michigan issue
I will attempt to find out why this state is not registering HMMWVs.....it may shed light on why the other states are following suit
I need and the MI guys also need to ask WI authorities why they are permitting registrations even knowing that MI is not.....they have a reason and we need to know that reason and push that agenda and reason to the fore in the other states.

IF THESE VEHICLES ARE SAFE FOR OUR WARFIGHTERS THEY ARE SAFE ENOUGH TO DRIVE ON THE HIGHWAY...our warfighters are citizen soldiers are they not?! This angle and patriotism and the HVA plus Hagerty are the key to fighting this problem
reenacting and WWII history

undysworld
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Re: Hummer titling

Post by undysworld » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:02 pm

DaninNM wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:18 am
MY 2 CENTS WORTH:
It is odd that we are hearing only about Michigan w/r/t HMMWVs .... but it is happening elsewhere.
Yes, there are now a number of states acting thusly.
DaninNM wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:18 am
THIS HAS ALL THE SIGNS OF A NATIONWIDE EFFORT BY MOTOR VEHICLE REGISTRARS TO GO AFTER HMMWVs - I do not know the reason but you cannot believe that the various state vehicle registrars don't hold a national (read junket) meeting somewhere and a "position paper" was presents or adopted or read in a seminar that is leading to now - four different states all "UNREGISTERING" these vehicles at the same time.
Sorry, no offense, but 'Duh'. Google AAMVA. American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators. https://www.aamva.org
DaninNM wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:18 am
This unregistration effort is the SMOKE.....we need to find the FIRE and PUT IT OUT.
This is not just a Michigan issue
I will attempt to find out why this state is not registering HMMWVs.....it may shed light on why the other states are following suit
I need and the MI guys also need to ask WI authorities why they are permitting registrations even knowing that MI is not.....they have a reason and we need to know that reason and push that agenda and reason to the fore in the other states.
I disagree, this IS the fire. Somebody needs to be the firefighter.

The reason Wisconsin licenses them is because that's what WISCONSIN law directs them to do. That law was hard-won. I know, I was there. I'd be happy to enlighten anyone who wants to ask questions.

AAMVA does promote "best practices", and this (IMHO) may well be being pushed by them. But remember, DOT/DMV/Dept. of Revenue, whoever titles and licenses vehicles in YOUR state works for you the people. They may only administer their own state's laws, nothing more. If it takes a law change, so be it. But this has to happen within each state.

All people like me can do is offer you the proof that you need to show that vehicles built for contracts with the US govt. meet the exact same equipment requirements as are required for civilian vehicles under FMVSS. This needs to be presented to lawmakers who can change the laws to protect owners.

Just my 2 cents.
1966 AM-General M35A-2
1973 DeTomaso Pantera
1976 Steyr-Puch Pinzgauer 712M
M-416 Trailer (behind Pinzgauer)
1980 AMC Jeep CJ-5

Info on Legislation at: http://www.alfaheaven.com/MilitarySecti ... Legis.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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